Add/del/subst and block elements

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Add/del/subst and block elements

Pierazzo, Elena
Dear list,
is there a good reason to allo <add> an <del> to contain <l> and <lg> but not to be contained by it? I have the case of a poem where 2 verses (<l>) are substituted by 2 others, these verses are contained by an <lg>.

I can encode the following:

<del><l>…</><l>…</l></del>
<add> <l>…</><l>…</l></del>

But this is not correct, because <add> and <del> cannot occur within <lg> nor can <subst> which makes the possibility of including <l> within add/dell useless since where else would <l> be? and same apply to <div> and <body>.

Cheers
Elena


 
__
Elena Pierazzo
Professeure d’italien et humanités numériques
Université Grenoble-Alpes - LUHCIE
Bureau Bâtiment 'Stendhal’ F307
BP 25 38040 Grenoble Cedex 9
Tel. +33 4 76828032

Visiting Senior Research Fellow
King's College London
Department of Digital Humanities
King's College London
26-29 Drury Lane
London
WC2B 5RL


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Re: Add/del/subst and block elements

Gerrit Brüning
Dear Elena,
Dear all,

I would like to second this consideration.
Since 2.9.1 it is allowed to use chunks and other structural elements inside lem and rdg:
http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/current/doc/tei-p5-doc/readme-2.9.1.html
del and add are, in a way, analogous to lem and rdg, so it would seem consistent to keep the content models of these elements parallel.

Best

Gerrit

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pierazzo, Elena
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 9:37 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Add/del/subst and block elements
>
> Dear list,
> is there a good reason to allo <add> an <del> to contain <l> and <lg> but not to
> be contained by it? I have the case of a poem where 2 verses (<l>) are
> substituted by 2 others, these verses are contained by an <lg>.
>
> I can encode the following:
>
> <del><l>…</><l>…</l></del>
> <add> <l>…</><l>…</l></del>
>
> But this is not correct, because <add> and <del> cannot occur within <lg> nor
> can <subst> which makes the possibility of including <l> within add/dell useless
> since where else would <l> be? and same apply to <div> and <body>.
>
> Cheers
> Elena
>
>
>
> __
> Elena Pierazzo
> Professeure d’italien et humanités numériques
> Université Grenoble-Alpes - LUHCIE
> Bureau Bâtiment 'Stendhal’ F307
> BP 25 38040 Grenoble Cedex 9
> Tel. +33 4 76828032
>
> Visiting Senior Research Fellow
> King's College London
> Department of Digital Humanities
> King's College London
> 26-29 Drury Lane
> London
> WC2B 5RL
>
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Re: Add/del/subst and block elements

Pierazzo, Elena
Thanks Gerrit. Does anybody object for me to report it as bug in Github then?


> Le 24 juil. 2018 à 10:43, Gerrit Brüning <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Dear Elena,
> Dear all,
>
> I would like to second this consideration.
> Since 2.9.1 it is allowed to use chunks and other structural elements inside lem and rdg:
> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tei-c.org%2FVault%2FP5%2Fcurrent%2Fdoc%2Ftei-p5-doc%2Freadme-2.9.1.html&amp;data=01%7C01%7Celena.pierazzo%40KCL.AC.UK%7C2d576de0e5e5438164e108d5f1419b85%7C8370cf1416f34c16b83c724071654356%7C0&amp;sdata=cUxgSRZfQ63WbCZq8aExf%2BgEMwtbXBYjVLQEPiu91mE%3D&amp;reserved=0
> del and add are, in a way, analogous to lem and rdg, so it would seem consistent to keep the content models of these elements parallel.
>
> Best
>
> Gerrit
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pierazzo, Elena
>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 9:37 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Add/del/subst and block elements
>>
>> Dear list,
>> is there a good reason to allo <add> an <del> to contain <l> and <lg> but not to
>> be contained by it? I have the case of a poem where 2 verses (<l>) are
>> substituted by 2 others, these verses are contained by an <lg>.
>>
>> I can encode the following:
>>
>> <del><l>…</><l>…</l></del>
>> <add> <l>…</><l>…</l></del>
>>
>> But this is not correct, because <add> and <del> cannot occur within <lg> nor
>> can <subst> which makes the possibility of including <l> within add/dell useless
>> since where else would <l> be? and same apply to <div> and <body>.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Elena
>>
>>
>>
>> __
>> Elena Pierazzo
>> Professeure d’italien et humanités numériques
>> Université Grenoble-Alpes - LUHCIE
>> Bureau Bâtiment 'Stendhal’ F307
>> BP 25 38040 Grenoble Cedex 9
>> Tel. +33 4 76828032
>>
>> Visiting Senior Research Fellow
>> King's College London
>> Department of Digital Humanities
>> King's College London
>> 26-29 Drury Lane
>> London
>> WC2B 5RL
>>
>
>

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Re: Add/del/subst and block elements

James Cummings-5

Hi Elena,


Am I right that what you are arguing is that since you can have an <l> element inside a <del> that you should be able to have a <del> child of <lg> to wrap the deleted lines that appear as part of a line group?


That is since you can do A already:



A) <add>
  <l>added verse line</l>
  <lg>
     <l>added single line stanza</l>
  </lg>
</add>
<del>
  <l>deleted verse line</l>
  <lg>
     <l>deleted single line stanza</l>
  </lg>
</del>

Or can do B: 

B) <l><add>added verse line</add></l>
<lg>
  <l><add>added single line stanza</add></l>
</lg>
<l><del>deleted verse line</del></l>
<lg>
  <l><del>deleted single line stanza</del></l>
</lg>

That you should be able to do C?
C)
<add><l>added verse line</l></add>
<lg>
  <add><l>added single line stanza</l></add>
</lg>
<del><l>deleted verse line</l></del>
<lg>
  <del><l>deleted single line stanza</l></del>
</lg>

While I tend towards the B style of encoding myself, I can see how if your <lg> had many lines but only some were deleted it might be easier to encode it in the way you suggest.


i.e.

  <lg>
     <l n="1">Line one</l>
     <l n="2">Line two</l>
     <del><l>deleted line</l></del>
     <l n="3">Line three</l>
     <del><l>deleted line</l></del>
     <l n="4">Line four</l>
  </lg>

Have I understood the problem correctly?


Many thanks,

James 


--

Dr James Cummings, [hidden email]

School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Pierazzo, Elena <[hidden email]>
Sent: 25 July 2018 09:20:16
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Add/del/subst and block elements
 
Thanks Gerrit. Does anybody object for me to report it as bug in Github then?


> Le 24 juil. 2018 à 10:43, Gerrit Brüning <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Dear Elena,
> Dear all,
>
> I would like to second this consideration.
> Since 2.9.1 it is allowed to use chunks and other structural elements inside lem and rdg:
> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tei-c.org%2FVault%2FP5%2Fcurrent%2Fdoc%2Ftei-p5-doc%2Freadme-2.9.1.html&amp;data=01%7C01%7Celena.pierazzo%40KCL.AC.UK%7C2d576de0e5e5438164e108d5f1419b85%7C8370cf1416f34c16b83c724071654356%7C0&amp;sdata=cUxgSRZfQ63WbCZq8aExf%2BgEMwtbXBYjVLQEPiu91mE%3D&amp;reserved=0
> del and add are, in a way, analogous to lem and rdg, so it would seem consistent to keep the content models of these elements parallel.
>
> Best
>
> Gerrit
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pierazzo, Elena
>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 9:37 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Add/del/subst and block elements
>>
>> Dear list,
>> is there a good reason to allo <add> an <del> to contain <l> and <lg> but not to
>> be contained by it? I have the case of a poem where 2 verses (<l>) are
>> substituted by 2 others, these verses are contained by an <lg>.
>>
>> I can encode the following:
>>
>> <del><l>…</><l>…</l></del>
>> <add> <l>…</><l>…</l></del>
>>
>> But this is not correct, because <add> and <del> cannot occur within <lg> nor
>> can <subst> which makes the possibility of including <l> within add/dell useless
>> since where else would <l> be? and same apply to <div> and <body>.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Elena
>>
>>
>>
>> __
>> Elena Pierazzo
>> Professeure d’italien et humanités numériques
>> Université Grenoble-Alpes - LUHCIE
>> Bureau Bâtiment 'Stendhal’ F307
>> BP 25 38040 Grenoble Cedex 9
>> Tel. +33 4 76828032
>>
>> Visiting Senior Research Fellow
>> King's College London
>> Department of Digital Humanities
>> King's College London
>> 26-29 Drury Lane
>> London
>> WC2B 5RL
>>
>
>

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Re: Add/del/subst and block elements

Pierazzo, Elena-2
Hi James and Lou, 

Sorry for the delay of my answer but various travelling kept me off-line.

The question is: since I can include a <l> inside <del> and <add>, there is no correct context within which I can actually do (i.e. <del> <l> blah blah</l></del>), since you cannot have a <del> within <lg>, nor within a <div>, in case you do not have an <lg>, so your example (A) is actually not usable in practice, since that <add> and <del> cannot occur within either a <div> or an <lg> : you can have it within a <p> (!!) or a <quote> though, but if you are transcribing a draft manuscript of a poem, you cannot do that.

My case is exactly the one you put on at the end: the author has cancelled a verse, and not its content, so cannot do your (B) and I need to do (C) otherwise I will ned up with empty <l>s which will be meaningless.

Elena


Le 30 juil. 2018 à 12:29, James Cummings <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Hi Elena,

Am I right that what you are arguing is that since you can have an <l> element inside a <del> that you should be able to have a <del> child of <lg> to wrap the deleted lines that appear as part of a line group?

That is since you can do A already:


A) <add>
  <l>added verse line</l>
  <lg>
     <l>added single line stanza</l>
  </lg>
</add>
<del>
  <l>deleted verse line</l>
  <lg>
     <l>deleted single line stanza</l>
  </lg>
</del>

Or can do B: 

B) <l><add>added verse line</add></l>
<lg>
  <l><add>added single line stanza</add></l>
</lg>
<l><del>deleted verse line</del></l>
<lg>
  <l><del>deleted single line stanza</del></l>
</lg>

That you should be able to do C?
C)
<add><l>added verse line</l></add>
<lg>
  <add><l>added single line stanza</l></add>
</lg>
<del><l>deleted verse line</l></del>
<lg>
  <del><l>deleted single line stanza</l></del>
</lg>

While I tend towards the B style of encoding myself, I can see how if your <lg> had many lines but only some were deleted it might be easier to encode it in the way you suggest.

i.e.

  <lg>
     <l n="1">Line one</l>
     <l n="2">Line two</l>
     <del><l>deleted line</l></del>
     <l n="3">Line three</l>
     <del><l>deleted line</l></del>
     <l n="4">Line four</l>
  </lg>

Have I understood the problem correctly?

Many thanks,
James 

--
Dr James Cummings, [hidden email]
School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University

From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Pierazzo, Elena <[hidden email]>
Sent: 25 July 2018 09:20:16
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Add/del/subst and block elements
 
Thanks Gerrit. Does anybody object for me to report it as bug in Github then? 


> Le 24 juil. 2018 à 10:43, Gerrit Brüning <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> 
> Dear Elena,
> Dear all,
> 
> I would like to second this consideration.
> Since 2.9.1 it is allowed to use chunks and other structural elements inside lem and rdg:
> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tei-c.org%2FVault%2FP5%2Fcurrent%2Fdoc%2Ftei-p5-doc%2Freadme-2.9.1.html&amp;data=01%7C01%7Celena.pierazzo%40KCL.AC.UK%7C2d576de0e5e5438164e108d5f1419b85%7C8370cf1416f34c16b83c724071654356%7C0&amp;sdata=cUxgSRZfQ63WbCZq8aExf%2BgEMwtbXBYjVLQEPiu91mE%3D&amp;reserved=0
> del and add are, in a way, analogous to lem and rdg, so it would seem consistent to keep the content models of these elements parallel.
> 
> Best
> 
> Gerrit
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pierazzo, Elena
>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 9:37 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Add/del/subst and block elements
>> 
>> Dear list,
>> is there a good reason to allo <add> an <del> to contain <l> and <lg> but not to
>> be contained by it? I have the case of a poem where 2 verses (<l>) are
>> substituted by 2 others, these verses are contained by an <lg>.
>> 
>> I can encode the following:
>> 
>> <del><l>…</><l>…</l></del>
>> <add> <l>…</><l>…</l></del>
>> 
>> But this is not correct, because <add> and <del> cannot occur within <lg> nor
>> can <subst> which makes the possibility of including <l> within add/dell useless
>> since where else would <l> be? and same apply to <div> and <body>.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Elena
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> __
>> Elena Pierazzo
>> Professeure d’italien et humanités numériques
>> Université Grenoble-Alpes - LUHCIE
>> Bureau Bâtiment 'Stendhal’ F307
>> BP 25 38040 Grenoble Cedex 9
>> Tel. +33 4 76828032
>> 
>> Visiting Senior Research Fellow
>> King's College London
>> Department of Digital Humanities
>> King's College London
>> 26-29 Drury Lane
>> London
>> WC2B 5RL
>> 
> 
>