Salute within paragraph

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Salute within paragraph

Peter Boot-3
This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal with salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a letter or postcard?

When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:

         <opener>
            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
         </opener>
         <p>How are you?</p>

But we have a postcard that starts like this:

Dear Freddy, how are you

Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:

         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>

Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution to me.

Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:

             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au revoir!</salute></p></postscript>

where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.

Peter
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Peter Stadler
Dear Peter,

I got no solution but all I can tell is: you’re not alone ;-)
There are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer, postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that not necessarily matches with "real“ correspondence texts. The issue is on the Correspondence SIG’s agenda [1] but has been deferred because we started with the "easy" header additions [2].

Best
Peter

[1] http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_under_discussion
[2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/

Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot <[hidden email]>:

> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal with salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a letter or postcard?
>
> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
>
>        <opener>
>           <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
>        </opener>
>        <p>How are you?</p>
>
> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
>
> Dear Freddy, how are you
>
> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
>
>        <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
>
> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution to me.
>
> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
>
>            <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
>                  him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
>
> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
>
> Peter
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Lou Burnard-6
<opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally thought
of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set off such
things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.

In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
<salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>

If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat things
like

<p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>

in the same way.



   On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:

> Dear Peter,
>
> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you’re not alone ;-)
> There are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer, postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that not necessarily matches with "real“ correspondence texts. The issue is on the Correspondence SIG’s agenda [1] but has been deferred because we started with the "easy" header additions [2].
>
> Best
> Peter
>
> [1] http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_under_discussion
> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
>
> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot <[hidden email]>:
>
>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal with salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a letter or postcard?
>>
>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
>>
>>         <opener>
>>            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
>>         </opener>
>>         <p>How are you?</p>
>>
>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
>>
>> Dear Freddy, how are you
>>
>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
>>
>>         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
>>
>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution to me.
>>
>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
>>
>>             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
>>                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
>>
>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
>>
>> Peter
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Martin Holmes
There are a couple of options I can think of: style="display:
inline[-block]":

<div>
   <salute style="display: inline;">Dear Freddy</salute> <p>How are you?</p>
</div>

or using a float:

<div>
   <salute style="float: left;">Dear Freddy</salute> <p>How are you?</p>
</div>

I think when you're describing the layout of these two components (a
paragraph and a salute) in relation to each other, there needs to be a
larger context (here the div) within which they're described.

Cheers,
Martin

On 14-06-26 05:02 AM, Lou Burnard wrote:

> <opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally thought
> of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set off such
> things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
> However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
> which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.
>
> In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
> the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
> <salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>
>
> If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
> different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat things
> like
>
> <p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>
>
> in the same way.
>
>
>
>    On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:
>> Dear Peter,
>>
>> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you’re not alone ;-)
>> There are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer,
>> postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that
>> not necessarily matches with "real“ correspondence texts. The issue is
>> on the Correspondence SIG’s agenda [1] but has been deferred because
>> we started with the "easy" header additions [2].
>>
>> Best
>> Peter
>>
>> [1]
>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_under_discussion
>>
>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
>>
>> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal with
>>> salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a letter
>>> or postcard?
>>>
>>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
>>>
>>>         <opener>
>>>            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
>>>         </opener>
>>>         <p>How are you?</p>
>>>
>>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
>>>
>>> Dear Freddy, how are you
>>>
>>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could
>>> introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
>>>
>>>         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear
>>> Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
>>>
>>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be
>>> embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
>>>
>>>             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
>>>                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au
>>> revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
>>>
>>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
>>>
>>> Peter
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Paul Schaffner
(awkwardly, on airport wifi)

We do not worry too much about the physical manifestation
of a paragraph, which we regard as a nominal (or, if you like,
a semantic) unit. I.e. in such cases as those described, we
simply capture the salutations as salute and defer the beginning
of the paragraph (and likewise teminate the concluding paragraph
'prematurely' in order to allow for closers, etc.).  This is by no
means a situation specific to handwritten communications -- printed
correspondence has it in abundance, especially the standard format
of official documents

James by the grace of God King of England etc. defendr of
the faith etc. to all the Sheriffs of his realm greetings. It has
come to our attention that you're not doing your job.

Which we would tag by starting the <p> with "IT has..."
put the rest in <opener>, subdividing it by placing "James ... faith,
etc."
in <signed> and "to all ... greetings" in <salute>. In the usual
Latin form of such documents, the <salute> usually actually ends
with the word 'salutem.'

(Others have mentioned the @style/rend/rendition options if
you wish to indicate the opener's embeddedness within the
following paragraph, but that is something that we rarely
trouble to do.)

A bit more problematic than these embedded salutes (etc.) for
us are 'resumptive' salues. E.g. in the middle of a letter, or
an oration, or whatever, the writer terminates one train of thought
and then begins, as it were, anew

Gentlemen, my dear friends, you have heard my thoughts. What
is your response?

If placed at the beginning of a division, "Gentlemen...friends" would
be thought a salutation. Placed resumptively in the middle of a
division, it is not possible to tag them that way. A fact that we
occasionally regret, but generally come to terms with.

(Boarding is starting! On the way to the TEI Council meeting)

pfs

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014, at 08:36, Martin Holmes wrote:

> There are a couple of options I can think of: style="display:
> inline[-block]":
>
> <div>
>    <salute style="display: inline;">Dear Freddy</salute> <p>How are
>    you?</p>
> </div>
>
> or using a float:
>
> <div>
>    <salute style="float: left;">Dear Freddy</salute> <p>How are you?</p>
> </div>
>
> I think when you're describing the layout of these two components (a
> paragraph and a salute) in relation to each other, there needs to be a
> larger context (here the div) within which they're described.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> On 14-06-26 05:02 AM, Lou Burnard wrote:
> > <opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally thought
> > of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set off such
> > things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
> > However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
> > which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.
> >
> > In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
> > the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
> > <salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>
> >
> > If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
> > different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat things
> > like
> >
> > <p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>
> >
> > in the same way.
> >
> >
> >
> >    On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:
> >> Dear Peter,
> >>
> >> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you’re not alone ;-)
> >> There are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer,
> >> postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that
> >> not necessarily matches with "real“ correspondence texts. The issue is
> >> on the Correspondence SIG’s agenda [1] but has been deferred because
> >> we started with the "easy" header additions [2].
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> [1]
> >> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_under_discussion
> >>
> >> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
> >>
> >> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal with
> >>> salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a letter
> >>> or postcard?
> >>>
> >>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
> >>>
> >>>         <opener>
> >>>            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
> >>>         </opener>
> >>>         <p>How are you?</p>
> >>>
> >>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Freddy, how are you
> >>>
> >>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could
> >>> introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
> >>>
> >>>         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear
> >>> Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
> >>>
> >>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution to
> >>> me.
> >>>
> >>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be
> >>> embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
> >>>
> >>>             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
> >>>                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au
> >>> revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
> >>>
> >>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
> >>>
> >>> Peter
--
Paul Schaffner  Digital Library Production Service
[hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Martin Mueller
In reply to this post by Lou Burnard-6
I often use this way of "not quite salutating" in deliberately informal
correspondence. For instance, I might write an email like "Thank you, Lou,
for this excellent suggestion." Whenever I do this, I'm very aware of the
fact that I'm not "salutating"  but am actively avoiding it. A very
different case from the very formal royal opener Paul Schaffner mentions
in another email. So I agree with Lou if I understand him correctly as
saying that whatever this kind of thing is it isn't a case of <salute>. It
belongs somewhere in a 'narratological typology' of names that begins with
'MHNIN AEIDE QEA' and 'ANDRA MOI ENNEPE MOUSA', apostrophic uses of names,
if you will. There will be many shades of gray and  other colours, and I
wonder whether any attempt to manage it with elements or attributes will
sooner rather than later remind us (or at least me) of Wallace Stevens'
line "The squirming facts exceed the squamous mind."


Martin Mueller
Professor emeritus of English and Classics
Northwestern University




On 6/26/14, 6:02, "Lou Burnard" <[hidden email]> wrote:

><opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally thought
>of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set off such
>things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
>However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
>which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.
>
>In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
>the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
><salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>
>
>If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
>different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat things
>like
>
><p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>
>
>in the same way.
>
>
>
>   On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:
>> Dear Peter,
>>
>> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you¹re not alone ;-)
>> There are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer,
>>postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that
>>not necessarily matches with "real³ correspondence texts. The issue is
>>on the Correspondence SIG¹s agenda [1] but has been deferred because we
>>started with the "easy" header additions [2].
>>
>> Best
>> Peter
>>
>> [1]
>>http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_under
>>_discussion
>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
>>
>> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal with
>>>salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a letter or
>>>postcard?
>>>
>>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
>>>
>>>         <opener>
>>>            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
>>>         </opener>
>>>         <p>How are you?</p>
>>>
>>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
>>>
>>> Dear Freddy, how are you
>>>
>>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could
>>>introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
>>>
>>>         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear
>>>Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
>>>
>>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution to
>>>me.
>>>
>>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be embedded
>>>within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
>>>
>>>             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
>>>                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au
>>>revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
>>>
>>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
>>>
>>> Peter
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Peter Boot-3
Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions and ideas. I'm not sure I agree with Martin that there is no salute in that sentence. It's true, however, that there are probably many cases of doubt. Presently I feel the best solution might be not to encode at all the inline saluting phrases.

Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Mueller
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:25 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [TEI-L] Salute within paragraph
>
> I often use this way of "not quite salutating" in deliberately informal
> correspondence. For instance, I might write an email like "Thank you, Lou, for
> this excellent suggestion." Whenever I do this, I'm very aware of the fact that
> I'm not "salutating"  but am actively avoiding it. A very different case from
> the very formal royal opener Paul Schaffner mentions in another email. So I
> agree with Lou if I understand him correctly as saying that whatever this kind
> of thing is it isn't a case of <salute>. It belongs somewhere in a 'narratological
> typology' of names that begins with 'MHNIN AEIDE QEA' and 'ANDRA MOI
> ENNEPE MOUSA', apostrophic uses of names, if you will. There will be many
> shades of gray and  other colours, and I wonder whether any attempt to
> manage it with elements or attributes will sooner rather than later remind us
> (or at least me) of Wallace Stevens'
> line "The squirming facts exceed the squamous mind."
>
>
> Martin Mueller
> Professor emeritus of English and Classics Northwestern University
>
>
>
>
> On 6/26/14, 6:02, "Lou Burnard" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ><opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally
> >thought of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set
> >off such things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
> >However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
> >which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.
> >
> >In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
> >the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
> ><salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>
> >
> >If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
> >different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat
> >things like
> >
> ><p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>
> >
> >in the same way.
> >
> >
> >
> >   On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:
> >> Dear Peter,
> >>
> >> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you¹re not alone ;-)  There
> >>are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer,
> >>postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that
> >>not necessarily matches with "real³ correspondence texts. The issue is
> >>on the Correspondence SIG¹s agenda [1] but has been deferred because
> >>we started with the "easy" header additions [2].
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> [1]
> >>http://wiki.tei-
> c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_un
> >>der
> >>_discussion
> >> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
> >>
> >> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot
> <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal
> >>>with salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a
> >>>letter or postcard?
> >>>
> >>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
> >>>
> >>>         <opener>
> >>>            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
> >>>         </opener>
> >>>         <p>How are you?</p>
> >>>
> >>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Freddy, how are you
> >>>
> >>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could
> >>>introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
> >>>
> >>>         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear
> >>>Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
> >>>
> >>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution
> >>>to me.
> >>>
> >>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be
> >>>embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
> >>>
> >>>             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
> >>>                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au
> >>>revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
> >>>
> >>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
> >>>
> >>> Peter
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Paul Schaffner
I probably would not tag many such marginally salutatary embedded
phrases either, and I'd concede that salutation is a broad semantic
category that leaves a lot of room for local practice in deciding which
members of that category deserve the notoriously <salute> label.

On the other hand, I would be leery of embracing as a principle the
notion that div-top and div-bottom material, in order to be tagged,
must be 'block' level in format, or otherwise visually distinct from
the paragraphs that form the body of the div. Visual distinctiveness
is a valuable servant to the tagger, but a poor master; and by and
large, when applying such basic structural tags I would hope that
two books that are textually identical, albeit formatted differently,
should receive the same markup. The same considerations apply,
mutatis mutandis, to <head>  <trailer> <signed> <dateline> and
so forth. Perhaps I am influenced by the extreme formal variety
of our material: in some of our earliest books, for example, there
are no block level elements at all: paragraphs, heads, trailers,
are all run together as continuous text. But that does not mean
that the constituent elements are not there (though the <p>s are
of course debatable and should perhaps yield to <ab>.), just that
they are harder to see. Submitted this .26. day of June
2014 novo stylo. Your servant, pfs. A. M. G. D.

On Fri, Jun 27, 2014, at 12:57, Peter Boot wrote:

> Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions and ideas. I'm not sure I agree
> with Martin that there is no salute in that sentence. It's true, however,
> that there are probably many cases of doubt. Presently I feel the best
> solution might be not to encode at all the inline saluting phrases.
>
> Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
> > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Mueller
> > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:25 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [TEI-L] Salute within paragraph
> >
> > I often use this way of "not quite salutating" in deliberately informal
> > correspondence. For instance, I might write an email like "Thank you, Lou, for
> > this excellent suggestion." Whenever I do this, I'm very aware of the fact that
> > I'm not "salutating"  but am actively avoiding it. A very different case from
> > the very formal royal opener Paul Schaffner mentions in another email. So I
> > agree with Lou if I understand him correctly as saying that whatever this kind
> > of thing is it isn't a case of <salute>. It belongs somewhere in a 'narratological
> > typology' of names that begins with 'MHNIN AEIDE QEA' and 'ANDRA MOI
> > ENNEPE MOUSA', apostrophic uses of names, if you will. There will be many
> > shades of gray and  other colours, and I wonder whether any attempt to
> > manage it with elements or attributes will sooner rather than later remind us
> > (or at least me) of Wallace Stevens'
> > line "The squirming facts exceed the squamous mind."
> >
> >
> > Martin Mueller
> > Professor emeritus of English and Classics Northwestern University
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/26/14, 6:02, "Lou Burnard" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > ><opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally
> > >thought of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set
> > >off such things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
> > >However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
> > >which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.
> > >
> > >In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
> > >the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
> > ><salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>
> > >
> > >If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
> > >different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat
> > >things like
> > >
> > ><p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>
> > >
> > >in the same way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:
> > >> Dear Peter,
> > >>
> > >> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you¹re not alone ;-)  There
> > >>are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer,
> > >>postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that
> > >>not necessarily matches with "real³ correspondence texts. The issue is
> > >>on the Correspondence SIG¹s agenda [1] but has been deferred because
> > >>we started with the "easy" header additions [2].
> > >>
> > >> Best
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >> [1]
> > >>http://wiki.tei-
> > c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_un
> > >>der
> > >>_discussion
> > >> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
> > >>
> > >> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot
> > <[hidden email]>:
> > >>
> > >>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal
> > >>>with salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a
> > >>>letter or postcard?
> > >>>
> > >>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
> > >>>
> > >>>         <opener>
> > >>>            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
> > >>>         </opener>
> > >>>         <p>How are you?</p>
> > >>>
> > >>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
> > >>>
> > >>> Dear Freddy, how are you
> > >>>
> > >>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could
> > >>>introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
> > >>>
> > >>>         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear
> > >>>Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
> > >>>
> > >>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution
> > >>>to me.
> > >>>
> > >>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be
> > >>>embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
> > >>>
> > >>>             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
> > >>>                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au
> > >>>revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
> > >>>
> > >>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
> > >>>
> > >>> Peter
--
Paul Schaffner  Digital Library Production Service
[hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Ralph Morton
In our data we get quite a lot of examples where the final paragraph follows a pattern similar to

Hoping to have the
pleasure of being present
in your lecture
I remain in great haste
Yours very truly,
G. Marconi

Since the <closer> is 'block level' is it acceptable to encode this as

<closer>Hoping to have the
pleasure of being present
in your lecture
<salute>I remain in great haste
Yours very truly,</salute>  
<signed>G. Marconi</signed></closer>

or is <closer> more restricted than that so it'd have to be more like

<p>Hoping to have the
pleasure of being present
in your lecture</p>
<closer><salute>I remain in great haste
Yours very truly,</salute>  
<signed>G. Marconi</signed></closer>

even though it's all one sentence?

________________________________________
From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Paul Schaffner <[hidden email]>
Sent: 27 June 2014 21:14
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Salute within paragraph

I probably would not tag many such marginally salutatary embedded
phrases either, and I'd concede that salutation is a broad semantic
category that leaves a lot of room for local practice in deciding which
members of that category deserve the notoriously <salute> label.

On the other hand, I would be leery of embracing as a principle the
notion that div-top and div-bottom material, in order to be tagged,
must be 'block' level in format, or otherwise visually distinct from
the paragraphs that form the body of the div. Visual distinctiveness
is a valuable servant to the tagger, but a poor master; and by and
large, when applying such basic structural tags I would hope that
two books that are textually identical, albeit formatted differently,
should receive the same markup. The same considerations apply,
mutatis mutandis, to <head>  <trailer> <signed> <dateline> and
so forth. Perhaps I am influenced by the extreme formal variety
of our material: in some of our earliest books, for example, there
are no block level elements at all: paragraphs, heads, trailers,
are all run together as continuous text. But that does not mean
that the constituent elements are not there (though the <p>s are
of course debatable and should perhaps yield to <ab>.), just that
they are harder to see. Submitted this .26. day of June
2014 novo stylo. Your servant, pfs. A. M. G. D.

On Fri, Jun 27, 2014, at 12:57, Peter Boot wrote:

> Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions and ideas. I'm not sure I agree
> with Martin that there is no salute in that sentence. It's true, however,
> that there are probably many cases of doubt. Presently I feel the best
> solution might be not to encode at all the inline saluting phrases.
>
> Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
> > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Mueller
> > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:25 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [TEI-L] Salute within paragraph
> >
> > I often use this way of "not quite salutating" in deliberately informal
> > correspondence. For instance, I might write an email like "Thank you, Lou, for
> > this excellent suggestion." Whenever I do this, I'm very aware of the fact that
> > I'm not "salutating"  but am actively avoiding it. A very different case from
> > the very formal royal opener Paul Schaffner mentions in another email. So I
> > agree with Lou if I understand him correctly as saying that whatever this kind
> > of thing is it isn't a case of <salute>. It belongs somewhere in a 'narratological
> > typology' of names that begins with 'MHNIN AEIDE QEA' and 'ANDRA MOI
> > ENNEPE MOUSA', apostrophic uses of names, if you will. There will be many
> > shades of gray and  other colours, and I wonder whether any attempt to
> > manage it with elements or attributes will sooner rather than later remind us
> > (or at least me) of Wallace Stevens'
> > line "The squirming facts exceed the squamous mind."
> >
> >
> > Martin Mueller
> > Professor emeritus of English and Classics Northwestern University
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/26/14, 6:02, "Lou Burnard" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > ><opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally
> > >thought of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set
> > >off such things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
> > >However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
> > >which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.
> > >
> > >In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
> > >the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
> > ><salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>
> > >
> > >If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
> > >different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat
> > >things like
> > >
> > ><p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>
> > >
> > >in the same way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:
> > >> Dear Peter,
> > >>
> > >> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you¹re not alone ;-)  There
> > >>are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer,
> > >>postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that
> > >>not necessarily matches with "real³ correspondence texts. The issue is
> > >>on the Correspondence SIG¹s agenda [1] but has been deferred because
> > >>we started with the "easy" header additions [2].
> > >>
> > >> Best
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >> [1]
> > >>http://wiki.tei-
> > c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_un
> > >>der
> > >>_discussion
> > >> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
> > >>
> > >> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot
> > <[hidden email]>:
> > >>
> > >>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal
> > >>>with salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a
> > >>>letter or postcard?
> > >>>
> > >>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
> > >>>
> > >>>         <opener>
> > >>>            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
> > >>>         </opener>
> > >>>         <p>How are you?</p>
> > >>>
> > >>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
> > >>>
> > >>> Dear Freddy, how are you
> > >>>
> > >>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could
> > >>>introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
> > >>>
> > >>>         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear
> > >>>Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
> > >>>
> > >>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution
> > >>>to me.
> > >>>
> > >>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be
> > >>>embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
> > >>>
> > >>>             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
> > >>>                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au
> > >>>revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
> > >>>
> > >>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
> > >>>
> > >>> Peter
--
Paul Schaffner  Digital Library Production Service
[hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Martin Holmes
Hi Ralph,

I think your first encoding is best here. The whole sentence constitutes
a closer, I think, with the salute and the signature as part of it.

Cheers,
Martin

On 14-11-26 08:39 AM, Ralph Morton wrote:

> In our data we get quite a lot of examples where the final paragraph follows a pattern similar to
>
> Hoping to have the
> pleasure of being present
> in your lecture
> I remain in great haste
> Yours very truly,
> G. Marconi
>
> Since the <closer> is 'block level' is it acceptable to encode this as
>
> <closer>Hoping to have the
> pleasure of being present
> in your lecture
> <salute>I remain in great haste
> Yours very truly,</salute>
> <signed>G. Marconi</signed></closer>
>
> or is <closer> more restricted than that so it'd have to be more like
>
> <p>Hoping to have the
> pleasure of being present
> in your lecture</p>
> <closer><salute>I remain in great haste
> Yours very truly,</salute>
> <signed>G. Marconi</signed></closer>
>
> even though it's all one sentence?
>
> ________________________________________
> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Paul Schaffner <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 27 June 2014 21:14
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Salute within paragraph
>
> I probably would not tag many such marginally salutatary embedded
> phrases either, and I'd concede that salutation is a broad semantic
> category that leaves a lot of room for local practice in deciding which
> members of that category deserve the notoriously <salute> label.
>
> On the other hand, I would be leery of embracing as a principle the
> notion that div-top and div-bottom material, in order to be tagged,
> must be 'block' level in format, or otherwise visually distinct from
> the paragraphs that form the body of the div. Visual distinctiveness
> is a valuable servant to the tagger, but a poor master; and by and
> large, when applying such basic structural tags I would hope that
> two books that are textually identical, albeit formatted differently,
> should receive the same markup. The same considerations apply,
> mutatis mutandis, to <head>  <trailer> <signed> <dateline> and
> so forth. Perhaps I am influenced by the extreme formal variety
> of our material: in some of our earliest books, for example, there
> are no block level elements at all: paragraphs, heads, trailers,
> are all run together as continuous text. But that does not mean
> that the constituent elements are not there (though the <p>s are
> of course debatable and should perhaps yield to <ab>.), just that
> they are harder to see. Submitted this .26. day of June
> 2014 novo stylo. Your servant, pfs. A. M. G. D.
>
> On Fri, Jun 27, 2014, at 12:57, Peter Boot wrote:
>> Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions and ideas. I'm not sure I agree
>> with Martin that there is no salute in that sentence. It's true, however,
>> that there are probably many cases of doubt. Presently I feel the best
>> solution might be not to encode at all the inline saluting phrases.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
>>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Mueller
>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:25 AM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [TEI-L] Salute within paragraph
>>>
>>> I often use this way of "not quite salutating" in deliberately informal
>>> correspondence. For instance, I might write an email like "Thank you, Lou, for
>>> this excellent suggestion." Whenever I do this, I'm very aware of the fact that
>>> I'm not "salutating"  but am actively avoiding it. A very different case from
>>> the very formal royal opener Paul Schaffner mentions in another email. So I
>>> agree with Lou if I understand him correctly as saying that whatever this kind
>>> of thing is it isn't a case of <salute>. It belongs somewhere in a 'narratological
>>> typology' of names that begins with 'MHNIN AEIDE QEA' and 'ANDRA MOI
>>> ENNEPE MOUSA', apostrophic uses of names, if you will. There will be many
>>> shades of gray and  other colours, and I wonder whether any attempt to
>>> manage it with elements or attributes will sooner rather than later remind us
>>> (or at least me) of Wallace Stevens'
>>> line "The squirming facts exceed the squamous mind."
>>>
>>>
>>> Martin Mueller
>>> Professor emeritus of English and Classics Northwestern University
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/26/14, 6:02, "Lou Burnard" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally
>>>> thought of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set
>>>> off such things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
>>>> However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
>>>> which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.
>>>>
>>>> In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
>>>> the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
>>>> <salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>
>>>>
>>>> If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
>>>> different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat
>>>> things like
>>>>
>>>> <p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>
>>>>
>>>> in the same way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:
>>>>> Dear Peter,
>>>>>
>>>>> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you¹re not alone ;-)  There
>>>>> are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer,
>>>>> postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that
>>>>> not necessarily matches with "real³ correspondence texts. The issue is
>>>>> on the Correspondence SIG¹s agenda [1] but has been deferred because
>>>>> we started with the "easy" header additions [2].
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> http://wiki.tei-
>>> c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_un
>>>>> der
>>>>> _discussion
>>>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot
>>> <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal
>>>>>> with salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a
>>>>>> letter or postcard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          <opener>
>>>>>>             <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
>>>>>>          </opener>
>>>>>>          <p>How are you?</p>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Freddy, how are you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could
>>>>>> introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear
>>>>>> Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution
>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be
>>>>>> embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
>>>>>>                    him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au
>>>>>> revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter
> --
> Paul Schaffner  Digital Library Production Service
> [hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
>
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Re: Salute within paragraph

Peter Stadler
I second Martin. In our encodings we do as well mark the whole phrase as 'closer'.

Best
Peter


> Am 26.11.2014 um 19:24 schrieb Martin Holmes <[hidden email]>:
>
> Hi Ralph,
>
> I think your first encoding is best here. The whole sentence constitutes a closer, I think, with the salute and the signature as part of it.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>> On 14-11-26 08:39 AM, Ralph Morton wrote:
>> In our data we get quite a lot of examples where the final paragraph follows a pattern similar to
>>
>> Hoping to have the
>> pleasure of being present
>> in your lecture
>> I remain in great haste
>> Yours very truly,
>> G. Marconi
>>
>> Since the <closer> is 'block level' is it acceptable to encode this as
>>
>> <closer>Hoping to have the
>> pleasure of being present
>> in your lecture
>> <salute>I remain in great haste
>> Yours very truly,</salute>
>> <signed>G. Marconi</signed></closer>
>>
>> or is <closer> more restricted than that so it'd have to be more like
>>
>> <p>Hoping to have the
>> pleasure of being present
>> in your lecture</p>
>> <closer><salute>I remain in great haste
>> Yours very truly,</salute>
>> <signed>G. Marconi</signed></closer>
>>
>> even though it's all one sentence?
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Paul Schaffner <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: 27 June 2014 21:14
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: Salute within paragraph
>>
>> I probably would not tag many such marginally salutatary embedded
>> phrases either, and I'd concede that salutation is a broad semantic
>> category that leaves a lot of room for local practice in deciding which
>> members of that category deserve the notoriously <salute> label.
>>
>> On the other hand, I would be leery of embracing as a principle the
>> notion that div-top and div-bottom material, in order to be tagged,
>> must be 'block' level in format, or otherwise visually distinct from
>> the paragraphs that form the body of the div. Visual distinctiveness
>> is a valuable servant to the tagger, but a poor master; and by and
>> large, when applying such basic structural tags I would hope that
>> two books that are textually identical, albeit formatted differently,
>> should receive the same markup. The same considerations apply,
>> mutatis mutandis, to <head>  <trailer> <signed> <dateline> and
>> so forth. Perhaps I am influenced by the extreme formal variety
>> of our material: in some of our earliest books, for example, there
>> are no block level elements at all: paragraphs, heads, trailers,
>> are all run together as continuous text. But that does not mean
>> that the constituent elements are not there (though the <p>s are
>> of course debatable and should perhaps yield to <ab>.), just that
>> they are harder to see. Submitted this .26. day of June
>> 2014 novo stylo. Your servant, pfs. A. M. G. D.
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 27, 2014, at 12:57, Peter Boot wrote:
>>> Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions and ideas. I'm not sure I agree
>>> with Martin that there is no salute in that sentence. It's true, however,
>>> that there are probably many cases of doubt. Presently I feel the best
>>> solution might be not to encode at all the inline saluting phrases.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:TEI-
>>>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Mueller
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:25 AM
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: Re: [TEI-L] Salute within paragraph
>>>>
>>>> I often use this way of "not quite salutating" in deliberately informal
>>>> correspondence. For instance, I might write an email like "Thank you, Lou, for
>>>> this excellent suggestion." Whenever I do this, I'm very aware of the fact that
>>>> I'm not "salutating"  but am actively avoiding it. A very different case from
>>>> the very formal royal opener Paul Schaffner mentions in another email. So I
>>>> agree with Lou if I understand him correctly as saying that whatever this kind
>>>> of thing is it isn't a case of <salute>. It belongs somewhere in a 'narratological
>>>> typology' of names that begins with 'MHNIN AEIDE QEA' and 'ANDRA MOI
>>>> ENNEPE MOUSA', apostrophic uses of names, if you will. There will be many
>>>> shades of gray and  other colours, and I wonder whether any attempt to
>>>> manage it with elements or attributes will sooner rather than later remind us
>>>> (or at least me) of Wallace Stevens'
>>>> line "The squirming facts exceed the squamous mind."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Martin Mueller
>>>> Professor emeritus of English and Classics Northwestern University
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/26/14, 6:02, "Lou Burnard" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <opener>, <salute> and other divLiminal elements were originally
>>>>> thought of in the context of print or manuscript traditions which set
>>>>> off such things visually from the other "plain" paragraphs of a document.
>>>>> However, some of them (notably <salute>) also have a semantic aspect
>>>>> which can apply to any string of text, within or outside of a <p>.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case where a printed version of the text would plausibly offset
>>>>> the salutation from the rest, I think I would prefer something like
>>>>> <salute rend="inline">Dear Freddy</salute><p>How are you?</p>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want an inline-salutation element, I think it has to be a
>>>>> different one. And you also have to decide whether you will treat
>>>>> things like
>>>>>
>>>>> <p>How, my dear Freddy, are you?</p>
>>>>>
>>>>> in the same way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>   On 26/06/14 10:05, Peter Stadler wrote:
>>>>>> Dear Peter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got no solution but all I can tell is: you¹re not alone ;-)  There
>>>>>> are several correspondence related elements (opener, closer,
>>>>>> postscript, salute, signed) which impose a (prototypic) structure that
>>>>>> not necessarily matches with "real³ correspondence texts. The issue is
>>>>>> on the Correspondence SIG¹s agenda [1] but has been deferred because
>>>>>> we started with the "easy" header additions [2].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>> http://wiki.tei-
>>>> c.org/index.php/SIG:Correspondence#Topics_currently_un
>>>>>> der
>>>>>> _discussion
>>>>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/510/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 26.06.2014 um 10:24 schrieb Peter Boot
>>>> <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This seems like a rather basic question, but how do you all deal
>>>>>>> with salutations that are embedded within the first paragraph of a
>>>>>>> letter or postcard?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the salutation is placed above the text, we use:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         <opener>
>>>>>>>            <salute>Dear Freddy</salute>
>>>>>>>         </opener>
>>>>>>>         <p>How are you?</p>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But we have a postcard that starts like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Freddy, how are you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since salute is not allowed immediately in a paragraph, we could
>>>>>>> introduce a new element ('opener-inline')  to deal with this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         <p><opener-inline><salute>Dear
>>>>>>> Freddy</salute></opener-inline>, how are you?</p>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or just allow salute within p, which seems the preferable solution
>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Similar issues arise in closing salutations, that can also be
>>>>>>> embedded within regular paragraphs. We have a postscript like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             <postscript><p>Mr. Foster came to see me, I am going to
>>>>>>>                   him tomorrow. <salute>Good bye. Au
>>>>>>> revoir!</salute></p></postscript>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> where you wouldn't want to move the salute to a fictitious closer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter
>> --
>> Paul Schaffner  Digital Library Production Service
>> [hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
>>