biblScope child of imprint and/or monogr or analytic: what are the differences?

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biblScope child of imprint and/or monogr or analytic: what are the differences?

Emmanuelle Morlock
Dear all,

Playing with the Zotero translator for TEI (cf.
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zotero/translators/master/TEI.js), I
noticed that it puts the <biblScope> elements as childs of <imprint/>
whereas mots of the examples given by the TEI guidelines structure it as
<monogr/> or <analytic/> etc. child elements.
cf. http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/CO.html#COBITY

 From a semantic point of view, what's the difference? I would imagine
that putting it could be used to make a distinction betwen segmentations
at the FRBR work level (eg monogr/biblScope) and at the manifestation
level (imprint/biblScope)

But in most of the examples given by the TEI guidelines, I can't really
figure out sound differences.
What is the best practice there, in your point of view ?

Thanks for your comments and explanations,

Best,

Emmanuelle


--
Emmanuelle Morlock
IE CNRS - Humanités numériques & TEI
UMR 5189 HISoMA
http://www.hisoma.mom.fr

06 85 84 69 16
@emma_morlock

----------------------------------------------
Membre du comité de coordination d'Humanistica,
    association francophone des Humanités numériques
    <http://www.humanisti.ca>

Page HiSoMA : http://www.hisoma.mom.fr/annuaire/morlock-emmanuelle
Page HAL : https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuelle-morlock
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Re: biblScope child of imprint and/or monogr or analytic: what are the differences?

Lou Burnard-6
I don't think <biblScope> makes much sense as a child of <imprint>
though your suggestion for how to read it when it does is plausible.
Using it as a child of <monogr> or of <series> is surely the most
typical use case.
I am not sure it makes a lot of sense as child of <analytic> either.

We should probably review the usages of biblScope in the Guidelines (again).

Does the zotero translator know about <citedRange>? I would have thought
that was likely to be more appropriate for many cases.

On 28/05/16 10:58, Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Playing with the Zotero translator for TEI (cf.
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zotero/translators/master/TEI.js), I
> noticed that it puts the <biblScope> elements as childs of <imprint/>
> whereas mots of the examples given by the TEI guidelines structure it
> as <monogr/> or <analytic/> etc. child elements.
> cf. http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/CO.html#COBITY
>
> From a semantic point of view, what's the difference? I would imagine
> that putting it could be used to make a distinction betwen
> segmentations at the FRBR work level (eg monogr/biblScope) and at the
> manifestation level (imprint/biblScope)
>
> But in most of the examples given by the TEI guidelines, I can't
> really figure out sound differences.
> What is the best practice there, in your point of view ?
>
> Thanks for your comments and explanations,
>
> Best,
>
> Emmanuelle
>
>
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Re: biblScope child of imprint and/or monogr or analytic: what are the differences?

Charles Muller-5
In reply to this post by Emmanuelle Morlock
Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:


> Playing with the Zotero translator for TEI (cf.
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zotero/translators/master/TEI.js), I
> noticed that it puts the <biblScope> elements as childs of <imprint/>
> whereas mots of the examples given by the TEI guidelines structure it as
> <monogr/> or <analytic/> etc. child elements.
> cf. http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/CO.html#COBITY
>
>  From a semantic point of view, what's the difference? I would imagine
> that putting it could be used to make a distinction betwen segmentations
> at the FRBR work level (eg monogr/biblScope) and at the manifestation
> level (imprint/biblScope)

I think it depends what you are including in <biblScope> -- i.e., what
its attributes are. If it is the case of a journal, then <biblScope
unit="vol">, <biblScope unit="issue">, etc., make perfect sense to me
under <imprint>. I've been using <biblScope> inside of <imprint> for
probably 20 years now, the same way it comes out of Zotero, so no
problems for me in this.

Regards,

Chuck


--

---------------------------
A. Charles Muller

Graduate School of Humanities and Sociology
Faculty of Letters
University of Tokyo
7-3-1 Hongō, Bunkyō-ku
Tokyo 113-8654, Japan

Office Phone: 03-5841-3735

Web Site: Resources for East Asian Language and Thought
http://www.acmuller.net

Twitter: @H_Buddhism
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Re: biblScope child of imprint and/or monogr or analytic: what are the differences?

Kevin Hawkins-4
In reply to this post by Emmanuelle Morlock
Emmanuelle, thank you for bring this to our attention.

When I served on the Technical Council, I led work to clarify where
biblScope goes.  After much discussion, the Council settled on an ideal
practice.  It's discussed in these two tickets, both of which have
already been implemented:

http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3555190 (now archived at
https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/377 )

http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3555191 (now archived at
https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/378 )

(Unfortunately, links to revisions to the ODD files are now broken
because of the move from SourceForge to GitHub.)

If there are sections of chapter 3 (CO.html) of the Guidelines that you
think are still unclear, please let me know and I will be happy to
create a GitHub issue suggesting that we clarify.

As for the Zotero plugin, I think I neglected to point out these changes
to Stefan Majewski (the principal author of the Zotero translator) once
they were released in P5.  Perhaps he will agree to update it to match P5.

Kevin

On 5/28/16 3:58 AM, Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Playing with the Zotero translator for TEI (cf.
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zotero/translators/master/TEI.js), I
> noticed that it puts the <biblScope> elements as childs of <imprint/>
> whereas mots of the examples given by the TEI guidelines structure it as
> <monogr/> or <analytic/> etc. child elements.
> cf. http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/CO.html#COBITY
>
> From a semantic point of view, what's the difference? I would imagine
> that putting it could be used to make a distinction betwen segmentations
> at the FRBR work level (eg monogr/biblScope) and at the manifestation
> level (imprint/biblScope)
>
> But in most of the examples given by the TEI guidelines, I can't really
> figure out sound differences.
> What is the best practice there, in your point of view ?
>
> Thanks for your comments and explanations,
>
> Best,
>
> Emmanuelle
>
>
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Re: biblScope child of imprint and/or monogr or analytic: what are the differences?

Charles Muller-5
In reply to this post by Charles Muller-5
On 5/31/2016 6:04 AM, Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:

> What you say makes perfect sense, but most of the examples given by the
> guidelines for these attributes are not child of <imprint>.
> They also give both encodings for the same bibliographic item (from
> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/examples-imprint.html) :

I think that the <biblStruct> area of the TEI pages is one that needs
much more attention in terms of range and consistency of examples. A
cause of this may lie in the fact that overall, AFAICT, not that many
TEI-ers actually use <biblStruct> in their own work. Over the years, I
have met very few long-time TEI people who actually use it. That's what
motivated me to make my own <biblStruct> intro pages, many years ago.

http://www.acmuller.net/xml-tei-tut/index.html

That being said, I would be happy to work with someone to improve this
situation.

Charles

>
> <biblStruct> <analytic> <author>Chesnutt, David</author>
> <title>Historical Editions in the States</title> </analytic> <monogr>
> <title level="j">Computers and the Humanities</title> <imprint>
> <biblScope>25.6</biblScope> <date when="1991-12">(December,
> 1991):</date> <biblScope>377–380</biblScope> </imprint> </monogr>
> </biblStruct>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <monogr>
> <http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-monogr.html>
>
> <biblStruct> <analytic> <author>Chesnutt, David</author>
> <title>Historical Editions in the States</title> </analytic> <monogr>
> <title level="j">Computers and the Humanities</title> <imprint> <date
> when="1991-12">(December, 1991):</date> </imprint>
> <biblScope>25.6</biblScope> <biblScope unit="page" from="377"
> to="380">377–380</biblScope> </monogr> </biblStruct>
> My conclusion would be that there is no significant semantic difference.
> It's the way the encoder wants the information to be displayed after
> transformation that might prevail here.
> In effet, as imprint is defined as grouping information relating to the
> publication or distribution of a bibliographic item,
> monogr/imprint/biblScope could be specialized for a segmentation
> resulting from the publication or distribution operations, whereas
> monogr/biblScope could be used for a segmentation deriving from the
> inherent structure of the work...
> To subtle to be reliable?
> Other opinions?
>
> Best Emmanuelle
>
>
>
> Le 29/05/2016 06:08, Charles Muller a écrit :
>> Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Playing with the Zotero translator for TEI (cf.
>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zotero/translators/master/TEI.js), I
>>> noticed that it puts the <biblScope> elements as childs of <imprint/>
>>> whereas mots of the examples given by the TEI guidelines structure it as
>>> <monogr/> or <analytic/> etc. child elements.
>>> cf. http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/CO.html#COBITY
>>>
>>>  From a semantic point of view, what's the difference? I would imagine
>>> that putting it could be used to make a distinction betwen segmentations
>>> at the FRBR work level (eg monogr/biblScope) and at the manifestation
>>> level (imprint/biblScope)
>>
>> I think it depends what you are including in <biblScope> -- i.e., what
>> its attributes are. If it is the case of a journal, then <biblScope
>> unit="vol">, <biblScope unit="issue">, etc., make perfect sense to me
>> under <imprint>. I've been using <biblScope> inside of <imprint> for
>> probably 20 years now, the same way it comes out of Zotero, so no
>> problems for me in this.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Emmanuelle Morlock
> IE CNRS - Humanités numériques & TEI
> UMR 5189 HISoMA
> http://www.hisoma.mom.fr
>
> 06 85 84 69 16
> @emma_morlock
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> Membre du comité de coordination d'Humanistica,
>     association francophone des Humanités numériques
>     <http://www.humanisti.ca>
>
> Page HiSoMA :http://www.hisoma.mom.fr/annuaire/morlock-emmanuelle
> Page HAL :https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuelle-morlock
>


--

---------------------------
A. Charles Muller

Graduate School of Humanities and Sociology
Faculty of Letters
University of Tokyo
7-3-1 Hongō, Bunkyō-ku
Tokyo 113-8654, Japan

Office Phone: 03-5841-3735

Web Site: Resources for East Asian Language and Thought
http://www.acmuller.net

Twitter: @H_Buddhism
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Re: biblScope child of imprint and/or monogr or analytic: what are the differences?

Lou Burnard-6
Hi Charles

You might like to take a look at / comment on ticket
https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/377 which  underlays the decision to
recommend a preference for <biblScope> as a sibling of <imprint> rather
than as
a child of it.  I think the Council's view was that the definition of
imprint  did not warrant its containing e.g. page numbers, despite
earlier  practice permitting this.

Thanks for the link to your sample materials: we could certainly use
some of these (mutatur mutandis) to improve the current exemplification
of biblStruct, which (as I said earlier) is clearly in need of an overhaul.

Lou


On 31/05/16 03:15, Charles Muller wrote:

> On 5/31/2016 6:04 AM, Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:
>
>> What you say makes perfect sense, but most of the examples given by the
>> guidelines for these attributes a of <imprint>.
>> They also give both encodings for the same bibliographic item (from
>> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/examples-imprint.html)
>> :
>
> I think that the <biblStruct> area of the TEI pages is one that needs
> much more attention in terms of range and consistency of examples. A
> cause of this may lie in the fact that overall, AFAICT, not that many
> TEI-ers actually use <biblStruct> in their own work. Over the years, I
> have met very few long-time TEI people who actually use it. That's
> what motivated me to make my own <biblStruct> intro pages, many years
> ago.
>
> http://www.acmuller.net/xml-tei-tut/index.html
>
> That being said, I would be happy to work with someone to improve this
> situation.
>
> Charles
>
>>
>> <biblStruct> <analytic> <author>Chesnutt, David</author>
>> <title>Historical Editions in the States</title> </analytic> <monogr>
>> <title level="j">Computers and the Humanities</title> <imprint>
>> <biblScope>25.6</biblScope> <date when="1991-12">(December,
>> 1991):</date> <biblScope>377–380</biblScope> </imprint> </monogr>
>> </biblStruct>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> <monogr>
>> <http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-monogr.html>
>>
>> <biblStruct> <analytic> <author>Chesnutt, David</author>
>> <title>Historical Editions in the States</title> </analytic> <monogr>
>> <title level="j">Computers and the Humanities</title> <imprint> <date
>> when="1991-12">(December, 1991):</date> </imprint>
>> <biblScope>25.6</biblScope> <biblScope unit="page" from="377"
>> to="380">377–380</biblScope> </monogr> </biblStruct>
>> My conclusion would be that there is no significant semantic difference.
>> It's the way the encoder wants the information to be displayed after
>> transformation that might prevail here.
>> In effet, as imprint is defined as grouping information relating to the
>> publication or distribution of a bibliographic item,
>> monogr/imprint/biblScope could be specialized for a segmentation
>> resulting from the publication or distribution operations, whereas
>> monogr/biblScope could be used for a segmentation deriving from the
>> inherent structure of the work...
>> To subtle to be reliable?
>> Other opinions?
>>
>> Best Emmanuelle
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 29/05/2016 06:08, Charles Muller a écrit :
>>> Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Playing with the Zotero translator for TEI (cf.
>>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zotero/translators/master/TEI.js), I
>>>> noticed that it puts the <biblScope> elements as childs of <imprint/>
>>>> whereas mots of the examples given by the TEI guidelines structure
>>>> it as
>>>> <monogr/> or <analytic/> etc. child elements.
>>>> cf. http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/CO.html#COBITY
>>>>
>>>>  From a semantic point of view, what's the difference? I would imagine
>>>> that putting it could be used to make a distinction betwen
>>>> segmentations
>>>> at the FRBR work level (eg monogr/biblScope) and at the manifestation
>>>> level (imprint/biblScope)
>>>
>>> I think it depends what you are including in <biblScope> -- i.e., what
>>> its attributes are. If it is the case of a journal, then <biblScope
>>> unit="vol">, <biblScope unit="issue">, etc., make perfect sense to me
>>> under <imprint>. I've been using <biblScope> inside of <imprint> for
>>> probably 20 years now, the same way it comes out of Zotero, so no
>>> problems for me in this.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Emmanuelle Morlock
>> IE CNRS - Humanités numériques & TEI
>> UMR 5189 HISoMA
>> http://www.hisoma.mom.fr
>>
>> 06 85 84 69 16
>> @emma_morlock
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Membre du comité de coordination d'Humanistica,
>>     association francophone des Humanités numériques
>>     <http://www.humanisti.ca>
>>
>> Page HiSoMA :http://www.hisoma.mom.fr/annuaire/morlock-emmanuelle
>> Page HAL :https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuelle-morlock
>>
>
>
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Re: biblScope child of imprint and/or monogr or analytic: what are the differences?

Charles Muller-5
Lou,


> You might like to take a look at / comment on ticket
> https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/377 which  underlays the decision to
> recommend a preference for <biblScope> as a sibling of <imprint> rather
> than as
> a child of it.  I think the Council's view was that the definition of
> imprint  did not warrant its containing e.g. page numbers, despite
> earlier  practice permitting this.
>
> Thanks for the link to your sample materials: we could certainly use
> some of these (mutatur mutandis) to improve the current exemplification
> of biblStruct, which (as I said earlier) is clearly in need of an overhaul.

Thanks so much for this. But I am guessing that although this decision
was arrived at, it has not yet become a rule in the TEI schema? (It
seems that one can still put a <biblScope> inside of an <imprint>).

In any case, the continued refinement of the definition and examples of
<biblStruct> is warmly welcomed.

Charles


>
>
> On 31/05/16 03:15, Charles Muller wrote:
>> On 5/31/2016 6:04 AM, Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:
>>
>>> What you say makes perfect sense, but most of the examples given by the
>>> guidelines for these attributes a of <imprint>.
>>> They also give both encodings for the same bibliographic item (from
>>> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/examples-imprint.html)
>>> :
>>
>> I think that the <biblStruct> area of the TEI pages is one that needs
>> much more attention in terms of range and consistency of examples. A
>> cause of this may lie in the fact that overall, AFAICT, not that many
>> TEI-ers actually use <biblStruct> in their own work. Over the years, I
>> have met very few long-time TEI people who actually use it. That's
>> what motivated me to make my own <biblStruct> intro pages, many years
>> ago.
>>
>> http://www.acmuller.net/xml-tei-tut/index.html
>>
>> That being said, I would be happy to work with someone to improve this
>> situation.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>>
>>> <biblStruct> <analytic> <author>Chesnutt, David</author>
>>> <title>Historical Editions in the States</title> </analytic> <monogr>
>>> <title level="j">Computers and the Humanities</title> <imprint>
>>> <biblScope>25.6</biblScope> <date when="1991-12">(December,
>>> 1991):</date> <biblScope>377–380</biblScope> </imprint> </monogr>
>>> </biblStruct>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> <monogr>
>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-monogr.html>
>>>
>>> <biblStruct> <analytic> <author>Chesnutt, David</author>
>>> <title>Historical Editions in the States</title> </analytic> <monogr>
>>> <title level="j">Computers and the Humanities</title> <imprint> <date
>>> when="1991-12">(December, 1991):</date> </imprint>
>>> <biblScope>25.6</biblScope> <biblScope unit="page" from="377"
>>> to="380">377–380</biblScope> </monogr> </biblStruct>
>>> My conclusion would be that there is no significant semantic difference.
>>> It's the way the encoder wants the information to be displayed after
>>> transformation that might prevail here.
>>> In effet, as imprint is defined as grouping information relating to the
>>> publication or distribution of a bibliographic item,
>>> monogr/imprint/biblScope could be specialized for a segmentation
>>> resulting from the publication or distribution operations, whereas
>>> monogr/biblScope could be used for a segmentation deriving from the
>>> inherent structure of the work...
>>> To subtle to be reliable?
>>> Other opinions?
>>>
>>> Best Emmanuelle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 29/05/2016 06:08, Charles Muller a écrit :
>>>> Emmanuelle Morlock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Playing with the Zotero translator for TEI (cf.
>>>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zotero/translators/master/TEI.js), I
>>>>> noticed that it puts the <biblScope> elements as childs of <imprint/>
>>>>> whereas mots of the examples given by the TEI guidelines structure
>>>>> it as
>>>>> <monogr/> or <analytic/> etc. child elements.
>>>>> cf. http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/CO.html#COBITY
>>>>>
>>>>>  From a semantic point of view, what's the difference? I would imagine
>>>>> that putting it could be used to make a distinction betwen
>>>>> segmentations
>>>>> at the FRBR work level (eg monogr/biblScope) and at the manifestation
>>>>> level (imprint/biblScope)
>>>>
>>>> I think it depends what you are including in <biblScope> -- i.e., what
>>>> its attributes are. If it is the case of a journal, then <biblScope
>>>> unit="vol">, <biblScope unit="issue">, etc., make perfect sense to me
>>>> under <imprint>. I've been using <biblScope> inside of <imprint> for
>>>> probably 20 years now, the same way it comes out of Zotero, so no
>>>> problems for me in this.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Emmanuelle Morlock
>>> IE CNRS - Humanités numériques & TEI
>>> UMR 5189 HISoMA
>>> http://www.hisoma.mom.fr
>>>
>>> 06 85 84 69 16
>>> @emma_morlock
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> Membre du comité de coordination d'Humanistica,
>>>     association francophone des Humanités numériques
>>>     <http://www.humanisti.ca>
>>>
>>> Page HiSoMA :http://www.hisoma.mom.fr/annuaire/morlock-emmanuelle
>>> Page HAL :https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuelle-morlock
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


--

---------------------------
A. Charles Muller

Graduate School of Humanities and Sociology
Faculty of Letters
University of Tokyo
7-3-1 Hongō, Bunkyō-ku
Tokyo 113-8654, Japan

Office Phone: 03-5841-3735

Web Site: Resources for East Asian Language and Thought
http://www.acmuller.net

Twitter: @H_Buddhism