encoding a weird form of aside

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encoding a weird form of aside

Martin Mueller
I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:

  CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
   Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
   Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
   And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
   I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
   LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
   Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
   The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
   What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
   The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
   That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
   That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
   Or the least bird from muiting on my head.

The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in XML).

Are there better ways of doing this?










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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

James Cummings-4
Hi Martin,

Would this count as a <spGrp> perhaps? 

James

--
Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford


On 4 Sep 2017 20:24, Martin Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:

  CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
   Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
   Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
   And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
   I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
   LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
   Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
   The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
   What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
   The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
   That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
   That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
   Or the least bird from muiting on my head.

The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in XML).

Are there better ways of doing this?











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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

Martin Mueller

I had thought of that and rejected it because there is no @type attribute that would let you define it further. You could use @rend with an ‘aside’ value. But that doesn’t seem right, because ‘aside’ is a structural/semantic thing.

 

From: James Cummings <[hidden email]>
Date: Monday, September 4, 2017 at 1:32 PM
To: Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: encoding a weird form of aside

 

Hi Martin,

 

Would this count as a <spGrp> perhaps? 

James

 

--
Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford

 

 

On 4 Sep 2017 20:24, Martin Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:

  CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
   Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
   Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
   And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
   I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
   LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
   Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
   The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
   What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
   The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
   That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
   That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
   Or the least bird from muiting on my head.

The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in XML).

Are there better ways of doing this?









 

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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

Lou Burnard-6
I think you'll find spGrp does too have a @type attribute.

Sent from my Huawei Mobile

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: encoding a weird form of aside
From: Martin Mueller
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I had thought of that and rejected it because there is no @type attribute that would let you define it further. You could use @rend with an ‘aside’ value. But that doesn’t seem right, because ‘aside’ is a structural/semantic thing.

 

From: James Cummings <[hidden email]>
Date: Monday, September 4, 2017 at 1:32 PM
To: Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: encoding a weird form of aside

 

Hi Martin,

 

Would this count as a <spGrp> perhaps? 

James

 

--
Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford

 

 

On 4 Sep 2017 20:24, Martin Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:

  CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
   Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
   Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
   And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
   I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
   LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
   Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
   The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
   What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
   The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
   That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
   That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
   Or the least bird from muiting on my head.

The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in XML).

Are there better ways of doing this?









 

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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

Martin Mueller

I guess my eyes are giving out. That settles that, and it works.

 

 

 

From: "TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list" <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Date: Monday, September 4, 2017 at 2:41 PM
To: "TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: encoding a weird form of aside

 

I think you'll find spGrp does too have a @type attribute.

Sent from my Huawei Mobile

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: encoding a weird form of aside
From: Martin Mueller
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I had thought of that and rejected it because there is no @type attribute that would let you define it further. You could use @rend with an ‘aside’ value. But that doesn’t seem right, because ‘aside’ is a structural/semantic thing.

 

From: James Cummings <[hidden email]>
Date: Monday, September 4, 2017 at 1:32 PM
To: Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: encoding a weird form of aside

 

Hi Martin,

 

Would this count as a <spGrp> perhaps? 

James

 

--
Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford

 

 

On 4 Sep 2017 20:24, Martin Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:

  CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
   Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
   Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
   And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
   I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
   LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
   Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
   The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
   What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
   The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
   That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
   That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
   Or the least bird from muiting on my head.

The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in XML).

Are there better ways of doing this?








 

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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

Paul Schaffner
In reply to this post by Martin Mueller
Lacking <spGrp), could you either adapt <q> to this
purpose, or (if you are not offended by the thought),
'distribute' the aside-marking parentheses into each
speech comprising the aside?, I.e. either of the two
options below.  -pfs

<sp>
<speaker>CATI.</speaker>
<l>Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?</l>
<l>Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,</l>
<l>Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;</l>
<l>And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke</l>
<l>I haue betraid 'hem.</l>
</sp>
<q rend="in_parentheses" type="whispered_aside">
  <sp>
  <speaker>LON.</speaker>
  <l>Where's GABINIVS?</l>
  </sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LEN.</speaker>
  <l>Gone.</l>
  </sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LON.</speaker>
  <l>And VARGVNTEIVS?</l>
  </sp>
  <sp><speaker>LEN.</speaker>
  <l>Slipt away; all shrunke:</l>
  <l>Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.</l>
  </sp>
</q>
<sp>
<speaker>CATI.</speaker>
<l>I am</l>
<l>The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.</l>
<l>What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?</l>
<l>The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!</l>
<l>That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,</l>
<l>That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,</l>
<l>Or the least bird from muiting on my head.</l>
</sp>

or


<sp>
<speaker>CATI.</speaker>
<l>Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?</l>
<l>Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,</l>
<l>Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;</l>
<l>And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke</l>
<l>I haue betraid 'hem.</l>
</sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LON.</speaker>
  <l>(Where's GABINIVS?)</l>
  </sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LEN.</speaker>
  <l>(Gone.)</l>
  </sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LON.</speaker>
  <l>(And VARGVNTEIVS?)</l>
  </sp>
  <sp><speaker>LEN.</speaker>
  <l>(Slipt away; all shrunke:</l>
  <l>Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)</l>
  </sp>
<sp>
<speaker>CATI.</speaker>
<l>I am</l>
<l>The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.</l>
<l>What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?</l>
<l>The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!</l>
<l>That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,</l>
<l>That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,</l>
<l>Or the least bird from muiting on my head.</l>
</sp>



On Mon, Sep 4, 2017, at 15:23, Martin Mueller wrote:

> I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following
> fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:
>
>   CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
>    Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
>    Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
>    And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
>    I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
>    LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
>    Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
>    The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
>    What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
>    The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
>    That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
>    That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
>    Or the least bird from muiting on my head.
>
> The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by
> Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking
> comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of
> ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText
> type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s
> awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in
> XML).
>
> Are there better ways of doing this?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
University of Michigan Libraries
[hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

James Cummings-5
Hi Paul,

Wouldn't another way be to use @ana to classify the texts as being this form of interaction? Using 'q' seems strange to me.

James

--
Dr James Cummings, Newcastle University


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Paul Schaffner <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 9:03:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: encoding a weird form of aside
 
Lacking <spGrp), could you either adapt <q> to this
purpose, or (if you are not offended by the thought),
'distribute' the aside-marking parentheses into each
speech comprising the aside?, I.e. either of the two
options below.  -pfs

<sp>
<speaker>CATI.</speaker>
<l>Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?</l>
<l>Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,</l>
<l>Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;</l>
<l>And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke</l>
<l>I haue betraid 'hem.</l>
</sp>
<q rend="in_parentheses" type="whispered_aside">
  <sp>
  <speaker>LON.</speaker>
  <l>Where's GABINIVS?</l>
  </sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LEN.</speaker>
  <l>Gone.</l>
  </sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LON.</speaker>
  <l>And VARGVNTEIVS?</l>
  </sp>
  <sp><speaker>LEN.</speaker>
  <l>Slipt away; all shrunke:</l>
  <l>Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.</l>
  </sp>
</q>
<sp>
<speaker>CATI.</speaker>
<l>I am</l>
<l>The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.</l>
<l>What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?</l>
<l>The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!</l>
<l>That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,</l>
<l>That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,</l>
<l>Or the least bird from muiting on my head.</l>
</sp>

or


<sp>
<speaker>CATI.</speaker>
<l>Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?</l>
<l>Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,</l>
<l>Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;</l>
<l>And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke</l>
<l>I haue betraid 'hem.</l>
</sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LON.</speaker>
  <l>(Where's GABINIVS?)</l>
  </sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LEN.</speaker>
  <l>(Gone.)</l>
  </sp>
  <sp>
  <speaker>LON.</speaker>
  <l>(And VARGVNTEIVS?)</l>
  </sp>
  <sp><speaker>LEN.</speaker>
  <l>(Slipt away; all shrunke:</l>
  <l>Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)</l>
  </sp>
<sp>
<speaker>CATI.</speaker>
<l>I am</l>
<l>The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.</l>
<l>What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?</l>
<l>The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!</l>
<l>That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,</l>
<l>That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,</l>
<l>Or the least bird from muiting on my head.</l>
</sp>



On Mon, Sep 4, 2017, at 15:23, Martin Mueller wrote:
> I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following
> fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:
>
>   CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
>    Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
>    Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
>    And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
>    I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
>    LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
>    Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
>    The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
>    What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
>    The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
>    That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
>    That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
>    Or the least bird from muiting on my head.
>
> The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by
> Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking
> comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of
> ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText
> type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s
> awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in
> XML).
>
> Are there better ways of doing this?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
University of Michigan Libraries
[hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

Paul Schaffner
In reply to this post by Martin Mueller
Yes,  but I was supposing (always a dangerous thing) that anyone
confined, by circumstance or policy, to a limited or
'crippled' tag set, would probably be eschewing feature
structures.

(And of course <q> is rather notorious for the vagueness
of its definition and the open-endedness of its application
-- and developed a following back in the days before
floatingText, when <q><text> was the only available encoding
for any sort of embedded textual object..)

pfs

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017, at 16:07, James Cummings wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> Wouldn't another way be to use @ana to classify the texts as being this
> form of interaction? Using 'q' seems strange to me.
>
> James
>
> --
> Dr James Cummings, Newcastle University
>
> ________________________________
> From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list
> <[hidden email]> on behalf of Paul Schaffner
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 9:03:04 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: encoding a weird form of aside
>
> Lacking <spGrp), could you either adapt <q> to this
> purpose, or (if you are not offended by the thought),
> 'distribute' the aside-marking parentheses into each
> speech comprising the aside?, I.e. either of the two
> options below.  -pfs
>
> <sp>
> <speaker>CATI.</speaker>
> <l>Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?</l>
> <l>Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,</l>
> <l>Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;</l>
> <l>And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke</l>
> <l>I haue betraid 'hem.</l>
> </sp>
> <q rend="in_parentheses" type="whispered_aside">
>   <sp>
>   <speaker>LON.</speaker>
>   <l>Where's GABINIVS?</l>
>   </sp>
>   <sp>
>   <speaker>LEN.</speaker>
>   <l>Gone.</l>
>   </sp>
>   <sp>
>   <speaker>LON.</speaker>
>   <l>And VARGVNTEIVS?</l>
>   </sp>
>   <sp><speaker>LEN.</speaker>
>   <l>Slipt away; all shrunke:</l>
>   <l>Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.</l>
>   </sp>
> </q>
> <sp>
> <speaker>CATI.</speaker>
> <l>I am</l>
> <l>The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.</l>
> <l>What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?</l>
> <l>The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!</l>
> <l>That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,</l>
> <l>That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,</l>
> <l>Or the least bird from muiting on my head.</l>
> </sp>
>
> or
>
>
> <sp>
> <speaker>CATI.</speaker>
> <l>Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?</l>
> <l>Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,</l>
> <l>Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;</l>
> <l>And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke</l>
> <l>I haue betraid 'hem.</l>
> </sp>
>   <sp>
>   <speaker>LON.</speaker>
>   <l>(Where's GABINIVS?)</l>
>   </sp>
>   <sp>
>   <speaker>LEN.</speaker>
>   <l>(Gone.)</l>
>   </sp>
>   <sp>
>   <speaker>LON.</speaker>
>   <l>(And VARGVNTEIVS?)</l>
>   </sp>
>   <sp><speaker>LEN.</speaker>
>   <l>(Slipt away; all shrunke:</l>
>   <l>Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)</l>
>   </sp>
> <sp>
> <speaker>CATI.</speaker>
> <l>I am</l>
> <l>The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.</l>
> <l>What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?</l>
> <l>The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!</l>
> <l>That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,</l>
> <l>That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,</l>
> <l>Or the least bird from muiting on my head.</l>
> </sp>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017, at 15:23, Martin Mueller wrote:
> > I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following
> > fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:
> >
> >   CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
> >    Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
> >    Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
> >    And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
> >    I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
> >    LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
> >    Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
> >    The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
> >    What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
> >    The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
> >    That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
> >    That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
> >    Or the least bird from muiting on my head.
> >
> > The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by
> > Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking
> > comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of
> > ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText
> > type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s
> > awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in
> > XML).
> >
> > Are there better ways of doing this?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
> University of Michigan Libraries
> [hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/


--
Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
University of Michigan Libraries
[hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

Martin Mueller
In reply to this post by Paul Schaffner
I had thought of <q>, and it may in fact be the best solution. I remember an email from you in which you said that most of the needs for <floatingText> would be met more economically by <q> if  <q> supported <head>..  Which then made me think of <q> as something of a joker in the element pack—a role that fits its name.  Some TEI folks seem to frown on uses of ‘q’ that are valid in terms of its schema definition. But in the libretto of an 18th century opera (or modern musical), wrapping a duet in <q> is a quite economic and elegant way of marking a duet or other musical number and setting it off minimally from its surrounding context. Preferable to <spGrp> in a number of ways.  

A you point out in your response to James, “q” has a notoriously definition. It is “distinguished from its surrounding text” somehow, but there is lots of wiggle room about the somehow. In Wallace Stevens’ Connoisseurs of Chaos there is the great line “The squirming facts exceed the squamous mind.”  Two strategic ‘q’s in that quote.  Why not make ‘q’ the element that recognizes the truth of Stevens’ line. What about abuse of that privilege people might argue. But as my mother liked to say “abusus non tollit usum”.

On 9/5/17, 2:03 PM, "Paul Schaffner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

    Lacking <spGrp), could you either adapt <q> to this
    purpose, or (if you are not offended by the thought),
    'distribute' the aside-marking parentheses into each
    speech comprising the aside?, I.e. either of the two
    options below.  -pfs
   
    <sp>
    <speaker>CATI.</speaker>
    <l>Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?</l>
    <l>Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,</l>
    <l>Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;</l>
    <l>And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke</l>
    <l>I haue betraid 'hem.</l>
    </sp>
    <q rend="in_parentheses" type="whispered_aside">
      <sp>
      <speaker>LON.</speaker>
      <l>Where's GABINIVS?</l>
      </sp>
      <sp>
      <speaker>LEN.</speaker>
      <l>Gone.</l>
      </sp>
      <sp>
      <speaker>LON.</speaker>
      <l>And VARGVNTEIVS?</l>
      </sp>
      <sp><speaker>LEN.</speaker>
      <l>Slipt away; all shrunke:</l>
      <l>Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.</l>
      </sp>
    </q>
    <sp>
    <speaker>CATI.</speaker>
    <l>I am</l>
    <l>The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.</l>
    <l>What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?</l>
    <l>The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!</l>
    <l>That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,</l>
    <l>That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,</l>
    <l>Or the least bird from muiting on my head.</l>
    </sp>
   
    or
   
   
    <sp>
    <speaker>CATI.</speaker>
    <l>Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?</l>
    <l>Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,</l>
    <l>Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;</l>
    <l>And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke</l>
    <l>I haue betraid 'hem.</l>
    </sp>
      <sp>
      <speaker>LON.</speaker>
      <l>(Where's GABINIVS?)</l>
      </sp>
      <sp>
      <speaker>LEN.</speaker>
      <l>(Gone.)</l>
      </sp>
      <sp>
      <speaker>LON.</speaker>
      <l>(And VARGVNTEIVS?)</l>
      </sp>
      <sp><speaker>LEN.</speaker>
      <l>(Slipt away; all shrunke:</l>
      <l>Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)</l>
      </sp>
    <sp>
    <speaker>CATI.</speaker>
    <l>I am</l>
    <l>The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.</l>
    <l>What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?</l>
    <l>The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!</l>
    <l>That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,</l>
    <l>That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,</l>
    <l>Or the least bird from muiting on my head.</l>
    </sp>
   
   
   
    On Mon, Sep 4, 2017, at 15:23, Martin Mueller wrote:
    > I have struggled with a clear but economical encoding of the following
    > fragment from Ben Jonson’ Catiline:
    >
    >   CATI. Did I appeare so tame, as this man thinkes me?
    >    Look'd I so poore? So dead? So like that nothing,
    >    Which he calls vertuous? O my breast, breake quickly;
    >    And shew my friends my in-parts, lest they thinke
    >    I haue betraid 'hem.   (LON.  Where's GABINIVS?  LEN.  Gone.
    >    LON. And VARGVNTEIVS?  LEN.  Slipt away; all shrunke:
    >    Now that he mist the  Consul-ship.)  CATI. I am
    >    The scorne of bond-men; who are next to beasts.
    >    What can I worse pronounce my selfe, that's s-fitter?
    >    The owle of  Rome, whom boyes, and girls will hout!
    >    That were I set vp, for that wooddengod,
    >    That keeps our gardens, could not fright the crowes,
    >    Or the least bird from muiting on my head.
    >
    > The stuff within the parentheses seems to me to be whispered comments by
    > Catiline’s followers.  There are several instances of this way of marking
    > comments that in other texts would have been marked with some form of
    > ‘aside’.   I ended up wrapping these sequences of asides in <floatingText
    > type=”aside”> . This validates, but I’m not sure I like it, and it’s
    > awfully verbose (though verbosity is not supposed to be a concern in
    > XML).
    >
    > Are there better ways of doing this?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
   
   
    --
    Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
    University of Michigan Libraries
    [hidden email] | https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.umich.edu_-7Epfs_&d=DwIFaQ&c=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=rG8zxOdssqSzDRz4x1GLlmLOW60xyVXydxwnJZpkxbk&m=hZ2AD1vPGZ7iIDAJNnTQkFAK4f32Rs6EuOTsz8JkMDw&s=D0Wa0PlYsvi5b7xru9RmEPV_AKp5LdLy4hmXIrm4TC0&e= 
   

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Re: encoding a weird form of aside

Lou Burnard-6
In reply to this post by Paul Schaffner
There's nothing necessarily crippled about a tagset which doesn't
include spGrp (or anything else). You get the tagset you choose, and if
you choose to eschew something you later wish you hadn't, you can always
go back and choose again!

The pedant in me also wishes to point out that using @ana doesn't
necessarily require you to use feature structures. You can perfectly
well say e.g. ana="myObscureTaxonomy:foo"  or @ana="#wibble" provided
there is *something* with an identifier "wibble" somewhere: it could
just be an <item> in a <list> in  your <encodingDesc> for example.

And, yes, @ana is included in both TEI Simpleprint and  TEI Lite, if
that's the criterion.

Said Pedant also wishes to express deep shuddering, a sharp intake of
breath, and seriously furrowed brows at the suggestion of using <q> for
general purpose vague distinctions. SP opines that q is meant to be used
for things like quotes, dialogue, thought, etc. -- things which are at a
different narrative level but still constitutive of the same narrative.
It's not meant to be used to bracket parts of the narrative off just
because they are structurally weird, unless that weirdness also moves
them in some sense out of the same narrative level, as is the case for
an embedded text. So yes, you could use q if you thought that those
asides formed part of a different, free standing, narrative, but that
seems like a fairly dubious interpretation in this case.

I am interested by Paul's claim that this aberation,  if aberation it
be, "developed a following back in the days before floatingText". Is
this claim quantifiable? Is there evidence for it? If a random sample
showed that 70% of TEI encoders actually used the <p> tag to mark pages
rather than paragraphs, would that in itself justify such madness?

These are deep waters, mlud.


On 05/09/17 21:52, Paul Schaffner wrote:

> Yes,  but I was supposing (always a dangerous thing) that anyone
> confined, by circumstance or policy, to a limited or
> 'crippled' tag set, would probably be eschewing feature
> structures.
>
> (And of course <q> is rather notorious for the vagueness
> of its definition and the open-endedness of its application
> -- and developed a following back in the days before
> floatingText, when <q><text> was the only available encoding
> for any sort of embedded textual object..)
>
> pfs
>
> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017, at 16:07, James Cummings wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> Wouldn't another way be to use @ana to classify the texts as being this
>> form of interaction? Using 'q' seems strange to me.
>>
>> James
>>
>> --
>> Dr James Cummings, Newcastle University