encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

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MLH
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encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

MLH


Hello all,

Is there a standard way of encoding bibliographical entries where (instead of a page) a numbered entry or range of numbered entries is cited?

For example:

<bibl><title>Bibliotheca Hagiographia Latina>, 5625-6</bibl>

<citedRange> does not have "number" (or an equivalent) as an accepted value of @unit - is there an alternative?

Thanks

Matthew


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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

Elisa Beshero-Bondar-2
Matthew-- I think you'll want <biblScope> for this. It's a wonderfully versatile element, since you can use it for all kinds of ranges. See http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html

Best,
Elisa
--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Dec 12, 2016, at 6:14 AM, MLH <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hello all,

Is there a standard way of encoding bibliographical entries where (instead of a page) a numbered entry or range of numbered entries is cited?

For example:

<bibl><title>Bibliotheca Hagiographia Latina>, 5625-6</bibl>

<citedRange> does not have "number" (or an equivalent) as an accepted value of @unit - is there an alternative?

Thanks

Matthew


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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

Martin de la Iglesia-2
I'm afraid <biblScope> doesn't solve the problem: @unit is also available in <biblScope> and there is no suggested @unit value for the kind of number Matthew is looking for.


Martin


-- 
Martin de la Iglesia
Metadata and Data Conversion

Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
Göttingen State and University Library
D-37073 Göttingen

Papendiek 14 (Historical Building, Room 1.206)
+49 551 39-14070 (Tel.)
+49 551 39-3468 (Fax)

[hidden email]
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de


Am 12.12.2016 um 15:16 schrieb Elisa:
Matthew-- I think you'll want <biblScope> for this. It's a wonderfully versatile element, since you can use it for all kinds of ranges. See http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html

Best,
Elisa
--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Dec 12, 2016, at 6:14 AM, MLH <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hello all,

Is there a standard way of encoding bibliographical entries where (instead of a page) a numbered entry or range of numbered entries is cited?

For example:

<bibl><title>Bibliotheca Hagiographia Latina>, 5625-6</bibl>

<citedRange> does not have "number" (or an equivalent) as an accepted value of @unit - is there an alternative?

Thanks

Matthew




  



	
	
	
	
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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

Peter Stadler
Well, the values for @unit are only *suggested* values – which are by no means exhaustive. Exactly for the reason that there are probably uncountable numbering systems out there in the wild  …
So, I think <citedRange unit="myNumberingUnit">5625-6</citedRange> would still be appropriate.

Best
Peter

> Am 13.12.2016 um 10:47 schrieb Martin de la Iglesia <[hidden email]>:
>
> I'm afraid <biblScope> doesn't solve the problem: @unit is also available in <biblScope> and there is no suggested @unit value for the kind of number Matthew is looking for.
>
>
> Martin
>
>
> --
> Martin de la Iglesia
> Metadata and Data Conversion
>
> Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
> Göttingen State and University Library
> D-37073 Göttingen
>
> Papendiek 14 (Historical Building, Room 1.206)
> +49 551 39-14070 (Tel.)
> +49 551 39-3468 (Fax)
>
>
> [hidden email]
> http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de
>
>
> Am 12.12.2016 um 15:16 schrieb Elisa:
>> Matthew-- I think you'll want <biblScope> for this. It's a wonderfully versatile element, since you can use it for all kinds of ranges. See http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html
>>
>> Best,
>> Elisa
>> --
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>> Director, Center for the Digital Text
>> Associate Professor of English
>> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
>> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
>> E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org
>>
>> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2016, at 6:14 AM, MLH <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> Is there a standard way of encoding bibliographical entries where (instead of a page) a numbered entry or range of numbered entries is cited?
>>>
>>> For example:
>>>
>>> <bibl><title>Bibliotheca Hagiographia Latina>, 5625-6</bibl>
>>>
>>> <citedRange> does not have "number" (or an equivalent) as an accepted value of @unit - is there an alternative?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>>
>
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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

Nathan Gibson
For what it’s worth, in our bibliographies at Syriaca.org we use @unit=“entry” for citedRange and biblScope. I would personally support adding a suggested value of this sort. 

Nathan P. Gibson, Ph.D.

Postdoctoral Scholar in Syriac Studies and Digital Humanities
Vanderbilt University

On Dec 13, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Peter Stadler <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, the values for @unit are only *suggested* values – which are by no means exhaustive. Exactly for the reason that there are probably uncountable numbering systems out there in the wild  …
So, I think <citedRange unit="myNumberingUnit">5625-6</citedRange> would still be appropriate.

Best
Peter

Am 13.12.2016 um 10:47 schrieb Martin de la Iglesia <[hidden email]>:

I'm afraid <biblScope> doesn't solve the problem: @unit is also available in <biblScope> and there is no suggested @unit value for the kind of number Matthew is looking for.


Martin


--
Martin de la Iglesia
Metadata and Data Conversion

Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
Göttingen State and University Library
D-37073 Göttingen

Papendiek 14 (Historical Building, Room 1.206)
+49 551 39-14070 (Tel.)
+49 551 39-3468 (Fax)


[hidden email]
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de


Am 12.12.2016 um 15:16 schrieb Elisa:
Matthew-- I think you'll want <biblScope> for this. It's a wonderfully versatile element, since you can use it for all kinds of ranges. See http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html

Best,
Elisa
--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Dec 12, 2016, at 6:14 AM, MLH <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hello all,

Is there a standard way of encoding bibliographical entries where (instead of a page) a numbered entry or range of numbered entries is cited?

For example:

<bibl><title>Bibliotheca Hagiographia Latina>, 5625-6</bibl>

<citedRange> does not have "number" (or an equivalent) as an accepted value of @unit - is there an alternative?

Thanks

Matthew



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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

James Cummings-4
In reply to this post by Martin de la Iglesia-2
Hi Martin, Matthew, et al.

Just because there is not the suggested value you want does not
mean that you cannot use other values! It just means that the TEI
has not suggested that value as one of the examples you might
want to use.

Indeed, @unit on both biblScope and citedRange is there because
those elements both claim membership of
the att.citing class.
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.citing.html 
As you'll see there, the datatype of @unit is teidata.enumerated.
Whenever I see that datatype in the attributes I'm recommending
people use I suggest that they constrain it to be a set list of
values.  See the note on
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-teidata.enumerated.html 
which suggests this.

So in Matthew's case in creating his ODD he might wish to suggest
a (fixed or 'semi' fixed) list of attribute values which includes
'number' as a value.  (If indeed 'number' is the right term for
this kind of thing rather than 'entry' or 'orderedEntry' or
whatever else might seem reasonable.)

However, I think we're miscommunicating. I read Matthew's
original email not as asking for an alternative to using @unit on
citedRange or biblScope but wanting a suggestion for an
alternative term to put in the unit attribute.

Matthew:  I'd say the unit is 'entry' myself.

-James


On 13/12/16 09:47, Martin de la Iglesia wrote:

> I'm afraid <biblScope> doesn't solve the problem: @unit is also
> available in <biblScope> and there is no suggested @unit value
> for the kind of number Matthew is looking for.
>
>
> Martin
>
>
> --
> Martin de la Iglesia
> Metadata and Data Conversion
>
> Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
> Göttingen State and University Library
> D-37073 Göttingen
>
> Papendiek 14 (Historical Building, Room 1.206)
> +49 551 39-14070 (Tel.)
> +49 551 39-3468 (Fax)
>
> [hidden email]
> http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de
>
>
> Am 12.12.2016 um 15:16 schrieb Elisa:
>> Matthew-- I think you'll want <biblScope> for this. It's a
>> wonderfully versatile element, since you can use it for all
>> kinds of ranges. See
>> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html
>>
>> Best,
>> Elisa
>> --
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>> Director, Center for the Digital Text
>> Associate Professor of English
>> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
>> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
>> E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org
>>
>> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2016, at 6:14 AM, MLH <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> Is there a standard way of encoding bibliographical entries
>>> where (instead of a page) a numbered entry or range of
>>> numbered entries is cited?
>>>
>>> For example:
>>>
>>> <bibl><title>Bibliotheca Hagiographia Latina>, 5625-6</bibl>
>>>
>>> <citedRange> does not have "number" (or an equivalent) as an
>>> accepted value of @unit - is there an alternative?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>>
>>>
>


--
Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford,
TEI Consultations: [hidden email]
MLH
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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

MLH

Thanks James et al. I should have noticed that they were only suggested values! 'entry' makes sense to me in this case although it would be interesting to hear what other people have done.


re. Elisa's suggested about <biblScope>: my impression was that <biblScope> and <citedRange> had rather different functions, the first describing the pages (or whatever) occupied by a whole cited work (e.g. chapter in a book), and the second describing the pages cited from that work in a given reference. For example:

A. N. Other, "Example book section", in Example Book, <biblScope>pp. 123-234</biblScope>, at <citedRange>pp. 125-6</citedRange>


Matthew




From: James Cummings <[hidden email]>
Sent: 13 December 2016 10:23
To: Martin de la Iglesia; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries
 
Hi Martin, Matthew, et al.

Just because there is not the suggested value you want does not
mean that you cannot use other values! It just means that the TEI
has not suggested that value as one of the examples you might
want to use.

Indeed, @unit on both biblScope and citedRange is there because
those elements both claim membership of
the att.citing class.
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.citing.html
As you'll see there, the datatype of @unit is teidata.enumerated.
Whenever I see that datatype in the attributes I'm recommending
people use I suggest that they constrain it to be a set list of
values.  See the note on
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-teidata.enumerated.html
which suggests this.

So in Matthew's case in creating his ODD he might wish to suggest
a (fixed or 'semi' fixed) list of attribute values which includes
'number' as a value.  (If indeed 'number' is the right term for
this kind of thing rather than 'entry' or 'orderedEntry' or
whatever else might seem reasonable.)

However, I think we're miscommunicating. I read Matthew's
original email not as asking for an alternative to using @unit on
citedRange or biblScope but wanting a suggestion for an
alternative term to put in the unit attribute.

Matthew:  I'd say the unit is 'entry' myself.

-James


On 13/12/16 09:47, Martin de la Iglesia wrote:
> I'm afraid <biblScope> doesn't solve the problem: @unit is also
> available in <biblScope> and there is no suggested @unit value
> for the kind of number Matthew is looking for.
>
>
> Martin
>
>
> --
> Martin de la Iglesia
> Metadata and Data Conversion
>
> Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
> Göttingen State and University Library
> D-37073 Göttingen
>
> Papendiek 14 (Historical Building, Room 1.206)
> +49 551 39-14070 (Tel.)
> +49 551 39-3468 (Fax)
>
> [hidden email]
> http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de
>
>
> Am 12.12.2016 um 15:16 schrieb Elisa:
>> Matthew-- I think you'll want <biblScope> for this. It's a
>> wonderfully versatile element, since you can use it for all
>> kinds of ranges. See
>> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html
>>
>> Best,
>> Elisa
>> --
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>> Director, Center for the Digital Text
>> Associate Professor of English
>> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
>> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
>> E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org
>>
>> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2016, at 6:14 AM, MLH <[hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> Is there a standard way of encoding bibliographical entries
>>> where (instead of a page) a numbered entry or range of
>>> numbered entries is cited?
>>>
>>> For example:
>>>
>>> <bibl><title>Bibliotheca Hagiographia Latina>, 5625-6</bibl>
>>>
>>> <citedRange> does not have "number" (or an equivalent) as an
>>> accepted value of @unit - is there an alternative?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>>
>>>
>


--
Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford,
TEI Consultations: [hidden email]
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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

James Cummings-4
On 13/12/16 11:09, MLH wrote:

>
> Thanks James et al. I should have noticed that they were only
> suggested values! 'entry' makes sense to me in this case
> although it would be interesting to hear what other people have
> done.
>
>
> re. Elisa's suggested about <biblScope>: my impression was that
> <biblScope> and <citedRange> had rather different functions,
> the first describing the pages (or whatever) occupied by a
> whole cited work (e.g. chapter in a book), and the second
> describing the pages cited from that work in a given reference.
> For example:
>
> A. N. Other, "Example book section", in /Example Book/,
> <biblScope>pp. 123-234</biblScope>, at <citedRange>pp.
> 125-6</citedRange>
>

Hi Matthew,

You are correct in your understanding. Some projects use
biblScope where they should use citedRange because citedRange is
a more recent addition to the TEI.  It was first added in TEI P5
version 2.3.0
http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/2.3.0/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-citedRange.html 
in January 2013. Before this, biblScope sometimes did double duty
to cope with cited ranges as well in some projects.

(Just some history so people are reminded how much the TEI is a
developing, community-based standard.)

Those wanting this to be a suggested value... I've added an issue
here on github:
https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1555
feel free to add your voice, clarifications, or objections there.

-James


--
Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford,
TEI Consultations: [hidden email]
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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

Stefan Dumont
Hi James, hi Matthew,

thanks for the clarification, because this was new to me! Perhaps we
should adjust the note in the <biblScope> reference? Right now, it seems
for me, that the note is (regarding the difference to <citedRange>) a
little bit missunderstandig:

"When a single page is being cited, use the @from and @to attributes
with an identical value. When no clear endpoint is provided, the @from
attribute should be used without @to. For example, if the citation has
‘p. 3ff’ as a page reference."

Perhaps we could make also a reference to the element <citedRange>?

Best regards,
Stefan

Am 13.12.2016 um 12:19 schrieb James Cummings:

> On 13/12/16 11:09, MLH wrote:
>>
>> Thanks James et al. I should have noticed that they were only
>> suggested values! 'entry' makes sense to me in this case although it
>> would be interesting to hear what other people have done.
>>
>>
>> re. Elisa's suggested about <biblScope>: my impression was that
>> <biblScope> and <citedRange> had rather different functions, the first
>> describing the pages (or whatever) occupied by a whole cited work
>> (e.g. chapter in a book), and the second describing the pages cited
>> from that work in a given reference. For example:
>>
>> A. N. Other, "Example book section", in /Example Book/, <biblScope>pp.
>> 123-234</biblScope>, at <citedRange>pp. 125-6</citedRange>
>>
>
> Hi Matthew,
>
> You are correct in your understanding. Some projects use biblScope where
> they should use citedRange because citedRange is a more recent addition
> to the TEI.  It was first added in TEI P5 version 2.3.0
> http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/2.3.0/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-citedRange.html
> in January 2013. Before this, biblScope sometimes did double duty to
> cope with cited ranges as well in some projects.
>
> (Just some history so people are reminded how much the TEI is a
> developing, community-based standard.)
>
> Those wanting this to be a suggested value... I've added an issue here
> on github:
> https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1555
> feel free to add your voice, clarifications, or objections there.
>
> -James
>
>

--
Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie der Wissenschaften
TELOTA-Arbeitsgruppe
Jägerstraße 22/23
10117 Berlin

Tel.: 030 / 20370 -684
[hidden email]
www.bbaw.de/telota
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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

Elisa Beshero-Bondar-2
Stefan and all: Yes, that sounds like a good idea to me, to clarify when biblScope vs citedRange is more appropriate. That note on biblScope is surely misleading, since it encourages us to use it to cite a single page!
 I think both elements are equally versatile for defining any kind of unit for scope or range, whether volume, entry, or page. I think I misunderstood Matthew’s original question, too, because it sounded as if something wasn’t available in citedRange that was on biblScope. In reality they work the same way, and we customize them accordingly! 

I tend in my own projects to use biblScope for any expression of range, so if a project works only with volumes 2 and 3 of a series of 10, I use biblScope to indicate the usage of those particular volumes, when I should be using biblScope only to indicate that there are 10 volumes in a series, and citedRange to indicate my use of volumes 2 and 3. 

Elisa, too much a fan of biblScope!


On Dec 13, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Stefan Dumont <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi James, hi Matthew,

thanks for the clarification, because this was new to me! Perhaps we
should adjust the note in the <biblScope> reference? Right now, it seems
for me, that the note is (regarding the difference to <citedRange>) a
little bit missunderstandig:

"When a single page is being cited, use the @from and @to attributes
with an identical value. When no clear endpoint is provided, the @from
attribute should be used without @to. For example, if the citation has
‘p. 3ff’ as a page reference."

Perhaps we could make also a reference to the element <citedRange>?

Best regards,
Stefan

Am 13.12.2016 um 12:19 schrieb James Cummings:
On 13/12/16 11:09, MLH wrote:

Thanks James et al. I should have noticed that they were only
suggested values! 'entry' makes sense to me in this case although it
would be interesting to hear what other people have done.


re. Elisa's suggested about <biblScope>: my impression was that
<biblScope> and <citedRange> had rather different functions, the first
describing the pages (or whatever) occupied by a whole cited work
(e.g. chapter in a book), and the second describing the pages cited
from that work in a given reference. For example:

A. N. Other, "Example book section", in /Example Book/, <biblScope>pp.
123-234</biblScope>, at <citedRange>pp. 125-6</citedRange>


Hi Matthew,

You are correct in your understanding. Some projects use biblScope where
they should use citedRange because citedRange is a more recent addition
to the TEI.  It was first added in TEI P5 version 2.3.0
http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/2.3.0/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-citedRange.html
in January 2013. Before this, biblScope sometimes did double duty to
cope with cited ranges as well in some projects.

(Just some history so people are reminded how much the TEI is a
developing, community-based standard.)

Those wanting this to be a suggested value... I've added an issue here
on github:
https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1555
feel free to add your voice, clarifications, or objections there.

-James



-- 
Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie der Wissenschaften
TELOTA-Arbeitsgruppe
Jägerstraße 22/23
10117 Berlin

Tel.: 030 / 20370 -684
[hidden email]
www.bbaw.de/telota

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Re: encoding bibliographical references to numbered entries

Kevin Hawkins-4
In reply to this post by MLH

On 12/13/16 10:13 AM, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote:

That note on biblScope is surely misleading, since it encourages us to use it to cite a single page!

Indeed.  I've reopened the ticket where this note was added to suggest clarification.

Kevin