heading inside a speech

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heading inside a speech

Lou Burnard-6
Take a look at
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82901x/f61.item.r=brosse%20aveugle

You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't
read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be
tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates", so
it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the
whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word
"Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four
lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is
dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough..." )

This kind of thing happens frequently enough for it to be a real
nuisance that <label> is not available within the content of <sp> : I
bet Paul Schaffner can immediately find dozens of comparable cases from
EEBO. How are they treated there?
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Re: heading inside a speech

Janelle Jenstad
We're also going to need <label> within <sp> -- or at least a solution for tagging the non-spoken, non-stage bits of texts that sometimes appear within speeches -- for the Internet Shakespeare Editions also (currently being re-encoded in TEI after two decades of being in SGMLvish).

Best,
Janelle

Janelle Jenstad, Associate Professor, Department of English
Executive Director and Coordinating Platform Editor, Internet Shakespeare Editions at Victoria
Director, The Map of Early Modern London
University of Victoria
Skype:  janelle.jenstad; Cell: +1 250-858-7269; Time zone: UTC -8
 


-----Original Message-----
From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lou Burnard
Sent: October 1, 2017 9:08 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: heading inside a speech

Take a look at
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82901x/f61.item.r=brosse%20aveugle

You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates", so it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word "Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough..." )

This kind of thing happens frequently enough for it to be a real nuisance that <label> is not available within the content of <sp> : I bet Paul Schaffner can immediately find dozens of comparable cases from EEBO. How are they treated there?
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Re: heading inside a speech

C. M. Sperberg-McQueen
In reply to this post by Lou Burnard-6
> On Oct 1, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Take a look at http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82901x/f61.item.r=brosse%20aveugle
>
> You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates", so it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word "Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough...” )

From your description it sounds like an embedded text.  From the facsimile,
it looks like an embedded text.  

I’d use <text> for the letter; the heading “Lettre” is then easy to tag.
 



********************************************
C. M. Sperberg-McQueen
Black Mesa Technologies LLC
[hidden email]
http://www.blackmesatech.com
********************************************
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Re: heading inside a speech

James Cummings-5
In reply to this post by Janelle Jenstad


Having <label> inside <sp> makes sense to me (though we'd have to be clear when it was more appropriately used inside the prose or verse container (such as <p> or <l>) inside <sp> rather than directly inside <sp>.


In Lou's example I guess I'd ask (in trying to understand what this is), how you would expect this performance text to be acted? i.e. does CLEANTHE hold up, show, or somehow else demonstrate the letter? Or would they *say* the word 'Lettre'?  I'm wondering if it is more of a stage direction (show the letter and pretend to be reading it while saying these lines) or a bit of the speech itself. If neither of these, it would then be more like a <label> in that it is about the printed text and not the dramatic nature of it.


I don't really think it is a floating text myself.


Best wishes,

James 


--

Dr James Cummings, [hidden email]

School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Janelle Jenstad <[hidden email]>
Sent: 01 October 2017 17:16:40
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: heading inside a speech
 
We're also going to need <label> within <sp> -- or at least a solution for tagging the non-spoken, non-stage bits of texts that sometimes appear within speeches -- for the Internet Shakespeare Editions also (currently being re-encoded in TEI after two decades of being in SGMLvish).

Best,
Janelle

Janelle Jenstad, Associate Professor, Department of English
Executive Director and Coordinating Platform Editor, Internet Shakespeare Editions at Victoria
Director, The Map of Early Modern London
University of Victoria
Skype:  janelle.jenstad; Cell: +1 250-858-7269; Time zone: UTC -8
 


-----Original Message-----
From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lou Burnard
Sent: October 1, 2017 9:08 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: heading inside a speech

Take a look at
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82901x/f61.item.r=brosse%20aveugle

You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates", so it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word "Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough..." )

This kind of thing happens frequently enough for it to be a real nuisance that <label> is not available within the content of <sp> : I bet Paul Schaffner can immediately find dozens of comparable cases from EEBO. How are they treated there?
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Re: heading inside a speech

Martin Mueller
In reply to this post by C. M. Sperberg-McQueen
That would work, but <floatingText> in a context like this may be a form of what a colleague called “duck hunting with anti-aircraft guns”. A quoted letter (or part of it) is a very common thing in plays, and it’s more like what Paul Schaffner called “raisins in the oatmeal”—as opposed to pebbles.  I would use <q>, which lets you use <label>.  There are miles of wiggle room in what the Guidelines say about <q>, and anything that lets you tag something so ethereal as indirect free speech should allow you to tag something so common as a short letter.  Lou almost certainly won’t like that suggestion, but Paul might. The TCP is full of such encodings, and none the worse for it.

MM

On 10/2/17, 11:45 AM, "TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list on behalf of C. M. Sperberg-McQueen" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    > On Oct 1, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
    >
    > Take a look at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gallica.bnf.fr_ark-3A_12148_bpt6k82901x_f61.item.r-3Dbrosse-2520aveugle&d=DwIFaQ&c=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=rG8zxOdssqSzDRz4x1GLlmLOW60xyVXydxwnJZpkxbk&m=1Yb5oQEP55pLynkgLkzfHdjTqyddYN8Eyi1ZclYSUr4&s=526-g7tkSFBZxzN1zNTznIi8WmP_Kp24dYQGF1Qhxjs&e= 
    >
    > You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates", so it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word "Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough...” )
   
    From your description it sounds like an embedded text.  From the facsimile,
    it looks like an embedded text.  
   
    I’d use <text> for the letter; the heading “Lettre” is then easy to tag.
     
   
   
   
    ********************************************
    C. M. Sperberg-McQueen
    Black Mesa Technologies LLC
    [hidden email]
    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.blackmesatech.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=rG8zxOdssqSzDRz4x1GLlmLOW60xyVXydxwnJZpkxbk&m=1Yb5oQEP55pLynkgLkzfHdjTqyddYN8Eyi1ZclYSUr4&s=yWaskxrq3oxlYNv8knquyo8g_S0XCEOv8NUUorzedz4&e= 
    ********************************************
   

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Re: heading inside a speech

Paul Schaffner
In reply to this post by Lou Burnard-6
I have not yet caught up with this thread, but since
I am invoked by name thought I should at least say:

1. That we did indeed find many sorts of textual objects within
dramatic speeches;

2. That we resisted James' criterion that only things
spoken should be included within the <sp> tag, since
the dramatic format can cover a multitude of sins: at
the most extreme, we encountered a treatise on ballistics
(with diagrams) and a manual of double-entry bookkeeping
(with elaborate ledger pages and numerical tables), both
formatted as instructional dialogues: the ledgers and
diagrams could not reasonably be said to be have been spoken,
but they were clearly part of the <sp>, and so were captured
as what they were: <table> and <figure> (with all their
internal structure) within <sp>.

3. That any sort of div-liminal feature, or internal
div-like structure, within a speech normally triggered the
use of (SGML) <TEXT> or (P5) <floatingText>. Council members
will recall how we argued over proposals to provide some
sort of middle ground between <p>s and <label>s on the
one hand, and <floatingText> on the other, to cope with
the variety of 'raisins', and that the conclusion was that
since <floatingText> could handle it, we would recommend
its use, and downplay any notion that it was overkill.

4. That letters are among the commonest things to find
in speeches, and that many such letters include not only
headings but salutations, datelines, and signatures, all
of which we would normally capture as <head>, <salute> <dateline>
and <signed> as usual, wrapping the letter in a <floatingText>
tag. (In the SGML: <Q><TEXT><BODY><DIV1
TYPE="letter"><HEAD>Lettre</HEAD>...)
We even used a home-brewed <LETTER> tag that was simply a
shortcut for this string.

pfs


On Sun, Oct 1, 2017, at 12:07, Lou Burnard wrote:

> Take a look at
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82901x/f61.item.r=brosse%20aveugle
>
> You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't
> read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be
> tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates", so
> it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the
> whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word
> "Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four
> lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is
> dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough..." )
>
> This kind of thing happens frequently enough for it to be a real
> nuisance that <label> is not available within the content of <sp> : I
> bet Paul Schaffner can immediately find dozens of comparable cases from
> EEBO. How are they treated there?


--
Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
University of Michigan Libraries
[hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
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Re: heading inside a speech

Lou Burnard-6
Thanks for the comments, everyone. <floatingText> is clearly a good
solution, though I share James's reservations about it.

In the particular case I circulated earlier, there is a much simpler
solution: since we want a container for the text of the letter, and
since it is in verse and has no salutations, we could simply wrap it in
an <lg>, and then give the text "lettre" as the <head> of the lg, like this

<sp who="cleanthe">
             <speaker>CLEANTHE <stage>dicte.<stage> </speaker>
             <lg><head>Lettre.</head>
             <l >Monsieur, sçachez que ma fille veut bien</l>
             <l >Qu’un celebre hymené à vostre fils l’unisse,</l>
             <l >Qu’il vienne promptement, &amp; n’apprehende rien,</l>
             <l >Comme il plaist à Cleanthe, il agree à Melice.</l>
            </lg>
             <l>Il suffit de ces mots, pliez, &amp; le dessus</l>
             <l>Soit au vieux Parmenon, prez de Tours, &amp; rien plus.</l>
</sp>

However, nice though this solution is, it doen't generalise. In
particular, if the body of the letter is in prose, and still more so if
the surrounding text is, there's nothing analogous to <lg> for a group
of paragraphs.

Consider this one for example:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k708834/f40.item.r=cadenas amour
sentinelle

Carlos says something, Fernan says something, Florant then has two
distinct <sp>s: in the first he reads out the letter which Carlos has
just delivered, presumably including the salutations ("monsieur" and
"Clidamant")  but not the heading "lettre"; in the second he says
something, prefixed by a stage direction  which I translate as "after
having read the letter, he continues:"

The solution proposed by my French colleagues for both cases is to use
<q> as a wrapper, on the grounds that the letter-being-read-aloud is
clearly at a different narrative level from the speech of the character.
And within <q> one can put <label>, though not the other paraphernalia
associated with a div (so no signed, dateline, etc.) . This has the
merit of simplicity and permits consistency across a large number of texts.

Since q is defined so very vaguely, and since this project does not
intend using it for anything else (if they need to, they will use
<quote> or <said> instead)
I think this is a good compromise, but would be glad to hear of other
opinions/practices...



On 02/10/17 20:59, Paul Schaffner wrote:

> I have not yet caught up with this thread, but since
> I am invoked by name thought I should at least say:
>
> 1. That we did indeed find many sorts of textual objects within
> dramatic speeches;
>
> 2. That we resisted James' criterion that only things
> spoken should be included within the <sp> tag, since
> the dramatic format can cover a multitude of sins: at
> the most extreme, we encountered a treatise on ballistics
> (with diagrams) and a manual of double-entry bookkeeping
> (with elaborate ledger pages and numerical tables), both
> formatted as instructional dialogues: the ledgers and
> diagrams could not reasonably be said to be have been spoken,
> but they were clearly part of the <sp>, and so were captured
> as what they were: <table> and <figure> (with all their
> internal structure) within <sp>.
>
> 3. That any sort of div-liminal feature, or internal
> div-like structure, within a speech normally triggered the
> use of (SGML) <TEXT> or (P5) <floatingText>. Council members
> will recall how we argued over proposals to provide some
> sort of middle ground between <p>s and <label>s on the
> one hand, and <floatingText> on the other, to cope with
> the variety of 'raisins', and that the conclusion was that
> since <floatingText> could handle it, we would recommend
> its use, and downplay any notion that it was overkill.
>
> 4. That letters are among the commonest things to find
> in speeches, and that many such letters include not only
> headings but salutations, datelines, and signatures, all
> of which we would normally capture as <head>, <salute> <dateline>
> and <signed> as usual, wrapping the letter in a <floatingText>
> tag. (In the SGML: <Q><TEXT><BODY><DIV1
> TYPE="letter"><HEAD>Lettre</HEAD>...)
> We even used a home-brewed <LETTER> tag that was simply a
> shortcut for this string.
>
> pfs
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 1, 2017, at 12:07, Lou Burnard wrote:
>> Take a look at
>> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82901x/f61.item.r=brosse%20aveugle
>>
>> You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't
>> read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be
>> tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates", so
>> it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the
>> whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word
>> "Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four
>> lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is
>> dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough..." )
>>
>> This kind of thing happens frequently enough for it to be a real
>> nuisance that <label> is not available within the content of <sp> : I
>> bet Paul Schaffner can immediately find dozens of comparable cases from
>> EEBO. How are they treated there?
>
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Re: heading inside a speech

Paul Schaffner
That's exactly the solution we ended up with: <q> for embedded
texts without further structure (especially div-liminal elements);
<floatingText> for embedded texts *with* further structure,
especially div-liminal elements; and a bit a grey area in between,
when the only div-liminal tag in question was a heading that could
be construed either as a <label> or a <stage> (allowing use of <q>),
or as a <head> (requiring use of <floatingText>). pfs

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017, at 09:18, Lou Burnard wrote:

> Thanks for the comments, everyone. <floatingText> is clearly a good
> solution, though I share James's reservations about it.
>
> In the particular case I circulated earlier, there is a much simpler
> solution: since we want a container for the text of the letter, and
> since it is in verse and has no salutations, we could simply wrap it in
> an <lg>, and then give the text "lettre" as the <head> of the lg, like
> this
>
> <sp who="cleanthe">
>              <speaker>CLEANTHE <stage>dicte.<stage> </speaker>
>              <lg><head>Lettre.</head>
>              <l >Monsieur, sçachez que ma fille veut bien</l>
>              <l >Qu’un celebre hymené à vostre fils l’unisse,</l>
>              <l >Qu’il vienne promptement, &amp; n’apprehende rien,</l>
>              <l >Comme il plaist à Cleanthe, il agree à Melice.</l>
>             </lg>
>              <l>Il suffit de ces mots, pliez, &amp; le dessus</l>
>              <l>Soit au vieux Parmenon, prez de Tours, &amp; rien plus.</l>
> </sp>
>
> However, nice though this solution is, it doen't generalise. In
> particular, if the body of the letter is in prose, and still more so if
> the surrounding text is, there's nothing analogous to <lg> for a group
> of paragraphs.
>
> Consider this one for example:
>
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k708834/f40.item.r=cadenas amour
> sentinelle
>
> Carlos says something, Fernan says something, Florant then has two
> distinct <sp>s: in the first he reads out the letter which Carlos has
> just delivered, presumably including the salutations ("monsieur" and
> "Clidamant")  but not the heading "lettre"; in the second he says
> something, prefixed by a stage direction  which I translate as "after
> having read the letter, he continues:"
>
> The solution proposed by my French colleagues for both cases is to use
> <q> as a wrapper, on the grounds that the letter-being-read-aloud is
> clearly at a different narrative level from the speech of the character.
> And within <q> one can put <label>, though not the other paraphernalia
> associated with a div (so no signed, dateline, etc.) . This has the
> merit of simplicity and permits consistency across a large number of
> texts.
>
> Since q is defined so very vaguely, and since this project does not
> intend using it for anything else (if they need to, they will use
> <quote> or <said> instead)
> I think this is a good compromise, but would be glad to hear of other
> opinions/practices...
>
>
>
> On 02/10/17 20:59, Paul Schaffner wrote:
> > I have not yet caught up with this thread, but since
> > I am invoked by name thought I should at least say:
> >
> > 1. That we did indeed find many sorts of textual objects within
> > dramatic speeches;
> >
> > 2. That we resisted James' criterion that only things
> > spoken should be included within the <sp> tag, since
> > the dramatic format can cover a multitude of sins: at
> > the most extreme, we encountered a treatise on ballistics
> > (with diagrams) and a manual of double-entry bookkeeping
> > (with elaborate ledger pages and numerical tables), both
> > formatted as instructional dialogues: the ledgers and
> > diagrams could not reasonably be said to be have been spoken,
> > but they were clearly part of the <sp>, and so were captured
> > as what they were: <table> and <figure> (with all their
> > internal structure) within <sp>.
> >
> > 3. That any sort of div-liminal feature, or internal
> > div-like structure, within a speech normally triggered the
> > use of (SGML) <TEXT> or (P5) <floatingText>. Council members
> > will recall how we argued over proposals to provide some
> > sort of middle ground between <p>s and <label>s on the
> > one hand, and <floatingText> on the other, to cope with
> > the variety of 'raisins', and that the conclusion was that
> > since <floatingText> could handle it, we would recommend
> > its use, and downplay any notion that it was overkill.
> >
> > 4. That letters are among the commonest things to find
> > in speeches, and that many such letters include not only
> > headings but salutations, datelines, and signatures, all
> > of which we would normally capture as <head>, <salute> <dateline>
> > and <signed> as usual, wrapping the letter in a <floatingText>
> > tag. (In the SGML: <Q><TEXT><BODY><DIV1
> > TYPE="letter"><HEAD>Lettre</HEAD>...)
> > We even used a home-brewed <LETTER> tag that was simply a
> > shortcut for this string.
> >
> > pfs
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 1, 2017, at 12:07, Lou Burnard wrote:
> >> Take a look at
> >> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82901x/f61.item.r=brosse%20aveugle
> >>
> >> You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't
> >> read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be
> >> tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates", so
> >> it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the
> >> whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word
> >> "Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four
> >> lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is
> >> dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough..." )
> >>
> >> This kind of thing happens frequently enough for it to be a real
> >> nuisance that <label> is not available within the content of <sp> : I
> >> bet Paul Schaffner can immediately find dozens of comparable cases from
> >> EEBO. How are they treated there?
> >
>


--
Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
University of Michigan Libraries
[hidden email] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
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Re: heading inside a speech

Peter Flynn-8
In reply to this post by Lou Burnard-6
On 01/10/17 17:07, Lou Burnard wrote:
> Take a look at
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k82901x/f61.item.r=brosse%20aveugle
>
> You'll see what is clearly a bit of dramatic text. Even if you don't
> read 17th c French, you'll guess that "CLEANTHE" and "MELICE" should be
> tagged <speaker>. The word "dicte" might be translated "dictates",

I think it just means "reading", as a stage direction, as in "Enter Lady
Macbeth, reading a letter".

> it's probably a stage direction within the first <speaker>, or maybe the
> whole thing is a <stage>. The question is: how do we tag the word
> "Lettre." which follows, and the four lines following that. (These four
> lines are supposedly the content of a letter which CLEANTHE is
> dictating. "Il suffit de ces mots..." means "These words are enough..." )

The word "Lettre" is clearly not meant to be spoken; to some extent it's
superfluous, except as a stage direction to remind Cleanthe to bring the
damn thing on stage with him as the scene opens :-) If anything, it's a
document type...

I agree with Michael, its a text, but I'd put <text type="Lettre">

///Peter