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<hom>

williams
Dear All,

I have been trying to avoid <hom>, but Basnage has done a dirty on me. He always puts everything under one main entry with a series of subentries for senses, but here we have two unrelated meetings. 

Any ideas on a better way of handling this?

Best

Geoffrey

 <entry xml:lang="fr" xml:id="Canarie"><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><pos ana="subst">s.</pos><gen ana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
                 <sense><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres,
                     vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
                     <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages
                         gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
             <hom><sense ><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><pos ana="susbt">s.</pos><gen ana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
                 <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
                 <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un canarie femelle.</note>
             </sense></hom></entry>


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Re: <hom>

Piotr Bański-2
Dear Geoffrey,

Why not assume that repeated <sense> elements signal distinct senses? I
assume that you feel bound to the original and need to repeat the form
and grammatical information, even though it's fully redundant.

Remarks:
* there's no need to keep <gramGrp> inside <form>
* @ana takes URIs as values
* I understand that the gender information comes from you, as an extra
* I added @n attributes to <sense>s

So how about:

<entry xml:lang="fr" xml:id="Canarie">
   <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
   <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen ana="#fem"
                         /></gramGrp>

    <sense n="1"><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns croyent
venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres, vient d’un balet
ou mascarade dont les Danseurs etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine,
ou Sauvages.</def>
    <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se recule les uns des
autres, en faisant plusieurs partages gaillards , étranges &amp;
bizarres qui representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>

   <sense n="2">
      <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
      <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen
                                 ana="#fem"/></gramGrp>
      <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on apporte
ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
      <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un canarie
femelle.</note>
     </sense>
</entry>

HTH,

   Piotr

On 24/04/17 20:56, [hidden email] wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I have been trying to avoid <hom>, but Basnage has done a dirty on me.
> He always puts everything under one main entry with a series of
> subentries for senses, but here we have two unrelated meetings.
>
> Any ideas on a better way of handling this?
>
> Best
>
> Geoffrey
>
>  <entryxml:lang="fr"xml:id="Canarie"><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="subst">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
>                  <sense><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns
> croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres,
>                      vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs
> etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
>                      <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se
> recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages
>                          gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui
> representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
>
> <hom><sense><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="susbt">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
>                  <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on
> apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
>                  <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un
> canarie femelle.</note>
>              </sense></hom></entry>
>
>


--
Piotr Bański, Ph.D.
Senior Researcher,
Institut für Deutsche Sprache,
R5 6-13
68-161 Mannheim, Germany

--
Piotr Bański, Ph.D.
Senior Researcher,
Institut für Deutsche Sprache,
R5 6-13
68-161 Mannheim, Germany
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Re: <hom>

williams
Dear Piotr,

Many thanks.

This is pretty much what I agreed on with Laurent, after correcting one mistake in encoding in that the second sense is masculin, and therefore clearly a homonym. I know that hom is deprecated, but I would like to have had a type on sense so as to stress the homonymic nature of the word.

Basnage is fairly consistent in grouping by orthographic word, except when their is a variation in spelling indicating a different word as in his entries for ‘Cane’ (bird) and Cane (plant). Grammar is given as simple abbreviations s. m. for substantive masculin. I am just adding this for the moment as I want to go over this later with specialists of 17th century grammar so as to link the information to current grammatical models.

I am not at the end of surprises with this text as Basnage was constantly experimenting, thereby going far beyond what Furetière had given as entries, which is what makes this such a fascinating dictionary.

Best wishes

Geoffrey

> Le 27 avr. 2017 à 11:21, Piotr Banski <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Dear Geoffrey,
>
> Why not assume that repeated <sense> elements signal distinct senses? I assume that you feel bound to the original and need to repeat the form and grammatical information, even though it's fully redundant.
>
> Remarks:
> * there's no need to keep <gramGrp> inside <form>
> * @ana takes URIs as values
> * I understand that the gender information comes from you, as an extra
> * I added @n attributes to <sense>s
>
> So how about:
>
> <entry xml:lang="fr" xml:id="Canarie">
>  <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
>  <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen ana="#fem"
>                        /></gramGrp>
>
>   <sense n="1"><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres, vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
>   <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
>
>  <sense n="2">
>     <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
>     <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen
>                                ana="#fem"/></gramGrp>
>     <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
>     <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un canarie femelle.</note>
>    </sense>
> </entry>
>
> HTH,
>
>  Piotr
>
> On 24/04/17 20:56, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I have been trying to avoid <hom>, but Basnage has done a dirty on me.
>> He always puts everything under one main entry with a series of
>> subentries for senses, but here we have two unrelated meetings.
>>
>> Any ideas on a better way of handling this?
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Geoffrey
>>
>> <entryxml:lang="fr"xml:id="Canarie"><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="subst">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
>>                 <sense><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns
>> croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres,
>>                     vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs
>> etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
>>                     <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se
>> recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages
>>                         gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui
>> representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
>>
>> <hom><sense><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="susbt">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
>>                 <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on
>> apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
>>                 <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un
>> canarie femelle.</note>
>>             </sense></hom></entry>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Piotr Bański, Ph.D.
> Senior Researcher,
> Institut für Deutsche Sprache,
> R5 6-13
> 68-161 Mannheim, Germany
>
> --
> Piotr Bański, Ph.D.
> Senior Researcher,
> Institut für Deutsche Sprache,
> R5 6-13
> 68-161 Mannheim, Germany
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Re: <hom>

Piotr Bański-2
Dear Geoffrey,

Good to hear that you've found a solution. Two nitpicks follow.

Firstly, it's not that <hom> is formally deprecated in the TEI. It might
become deprecated if the Council decides so, but for now, a group of us
working on the "Lex0" proposal have determined that there seem to be no
cases where <hom> is in any way forced upon the encoder, and the world
without <hom> might be slightly better. So <hom> is not used in
TEI-Lex0, but that is not binding for anyone in the sense that if you
use <hom> and wish to map your dictionary to TEI-Lex0, you need to find
a way to express the information differently.

Secondly, @type on <sense> saying that it's homonymic strikes me as a
bit odd, because being homonymic is a relational and conditional
property. A sense becomes "homonymic" if it shares the same form (where
"sameness" can be a matter of degree) and is sufficiently distinct from
another sense anchored in the same form (and the cut-off point for
"sufficiently" also varies, depending on your theory of meaning,
depending on the other senses that you wish to recognize or ignore, and
depending on diachrony as well). A way to express your (as an editor) or
the author's view on the positioning of the cut-off line _could_ be
captured by a globally assumed principle that polysemous senses are
located (nested) inside a single <sense> element, while the presence of
more than one <sense> element within an entry signals that some agent
(author or editor) considers them homonymous. Given that, you don't need
the awkward "type='hom'", because the structure expresses your intention
well enough (and arguably better).

Best,

   Piotr



On 27/04/17 11:42, [hidden email] wrote:

> Dear Piotr,
>
> Many thanks.
>
> This is pretty much what I agreed on with Laurent, after correcting one mistake in encoding in that the second sense is masculin, and therefore clearly a homonym. I know that hom is deprecated, but I would like to have had a type on sense so as to stress the homonymic nature of the word.
>
> Basnage is fairly consistent in grouping by orthographic word, except when their is a variation in spelling indicating a different word as in his entries for ‘Cane’ (bird) and Cane (plant). Grammar is given as simple abbreviations s. m. for substantive masculin. I am just adding this for the moment as I want to go over this later with specialists of 17th century grammar so as to link the information to current grammatical models.
>
> I am not at the end of surprises with this text as Basnage was constantly experimenting, thereby going far beyond what Furetière had given as entries, which is what makes this such a fascinating dictionary.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Geoffrey
>
>> Le 27 avr. 2017 à 11:21, Piotr Banski <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Geoffrey,
>>
>> Why not assume that repeated <sense> elements signal distinct senses? I assume that you feel bound to the original and need to repeat the form and grammatical information, even though it's fully redundant.
>>
>> Remarks:
>> * there's no need to keep <gramGrp> inside <form>
>> * @ana takes URIs as values
>> * I understand that the gender information comes from you, as an extra
>> * I added @n attributes to <sense>s
>>
>> So how about:
>>
>> <entry xml:lang="fr" xml:id="Canarie">
>>   <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
>>   <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen ana="#fem"
>>                         /></gramGrp>
>>
>>    <sense n="1"><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres, vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
>>    <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
>>
>>   <sense n="2">
>>      <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
>>      <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen
>>                                 ana="#fem"/></gramGrp>
>>      <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
>>      <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un canarie femelle.</note>
>>     </sense>
>> </entry>
>>
>> HTH,
>>
>>   Piotr
>>
>> On 24/04/17 20:56, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I have been trying to avoid <hom>, but Basnage has done a dirty on me.
>>> He always puts everything under one main entry with a series of
>>> subentries for senses, but here we have two unrelated meetings.
>>>
>>> Any ideas on a better way of handling this?
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Geoffrey
>>>
>>> <entryxml:lang="fr"xml:id="Canarie"><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="subst">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
>>>                  <sense><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns
>>> croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres,
>>>                      vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs
>>> etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
>>>                      <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se
>>> recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages
>>>                          gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui
>>> representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
>>>
>>> <hom><sense><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="susbt">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
>>>                  <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on
>>> apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
>>>                  <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un
>>> canarie femelle.</note>
>>>              </sense></hom></entry>
>>>
>>>
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Re: <hom>

Piotr Bański-2
In reply to this post by williams
PS.

 > the second sense is masculin,

Given that the gender information is different for each homonym, my
initial suggestion is somewhat flawed, because it placed the feminine
gender label on the entire entry, while it only belongs to the first set
of senses.

Best,

   P.

On 27/04/17 11:42, [hidden email] wrote:

> Dear Piotr,
>
> Many thanks.
>
> This is pretty much what I agreed on with Laurent, after correcting one mistake in encoding in that the second sense is masculin, and therefore clearly a homonym. I know that hom is deprecated, but I would like to have had a type on sense so as to stress the homonymic nature of the word.
>
> Basnage is fairly consistent in grouping by orthographic word, except when their is a variation in spelling indicating a different word as in his entries for ‘Cane’ (bird) and Cane (plant). Grammar is given as simple abbreviations s. m. for substantive masculin. I am just adding this for the moment as I want to go over this later with specialists of 17th century grammar so as to link the information to current grammatical models.
>
> I am not at the end of surprises with this text as Basnage was constantly experimenting, thereby going far beyond what Furetière had given as entries, which is what makes this such a fascinating dictionary.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Geoffrey
>
>> Le 27 avr. 2017 à 11:21, Piotr Banski <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Geoffrey,
>>
>> Why not assume that repeated <sense> elements signal distinct senses? I assume that you feel bound to the original and need to repeat the form and grammatical information, even though it's fully redundant.
>>
>> Remarks:
>> * there's no need to keep <gramGrp> inside <form>
>> * @ana takes URIs as values
>> * I understand that the gender information comes from you, as an extra
>> * I added @n attributes to <sense>s
>>
>> So how about:
>>
>> <entry xml:lang="fr" xml:id="Canarie">
>>  <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
>>  <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen ana="#fem"
>>                        /></gramGrp>
>>
>>   <sense n="1"><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres, vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
>>   <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
>>
>>  <sense n="2">
>>     <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
>>     <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen
>>                                ana="#fem"/></gramGrp>
>>     <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
>>     <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un canarie femelle.</note>
>>    </sense>
>> </entry>
>>
>> HTH,
>>
>>  Piotr
>>
>> On 24/04/17 20:56, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I have been trying to avoid <hom>, but Basnage has done a dirty on me.
>>> He always puts everything under one main entry with a series of
>>> subentries for senses, but here we have two unrelated meetings.
>>>
>>> Any ideas on a better way of handling this?
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Geoffrey
>>>
>>> <entryxml:lang="fr"xml:id="Canarie"><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="subst">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
>>>                 <sense><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns
>>> croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres,
>>>                     vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs
>>> etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
>>>                     <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se
>>> recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages
>>>                         gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui
>>> representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
>>>
>>> <hom><sense><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="susbt">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
>>>                 <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on
>>> apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
>>>                 <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un
>>> canarie femelle.</note>
>>>             </sense></hom></entry>
>>>
>>>
>>

--
Piotr Bański, Ph.D.
Senior Researcher,
Institut für Deutsche Sprache,
R5 6-13
68-161 Mannheim, Germany
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Re: <hom>

williams
Dear Piotr

This is what I had put. I differentiated the two senses as they are to all intents and purposes homonyms.

Best

Geoffrey

 <entry xml:lang="fr" xml:id="Canarie">
                 <sense n="1"><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><pos ana="subst">s.</pos><gen ana="fem"></gen>f.</gramGrp></form><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres, 
                     vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def> 
                     <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages 
                         gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>
           <sense n="2"><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><pos ana="susbt">s.</pos><gen ana="masc »>m.</gen></gramGrp></form>
                 <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
                 <note>On l’appelle autrement <hi>ferin</hi>. Un <hi>canarie</hi> mâle, un <hi>canarie</hi> femelle.</note>
             </sense></entry>

Le 27 avr. 2017 à 14:49, Piotr Banski <[hidden email]> a écrit :

PS.

> the second sense is masculin,

Given that the gender information is different for each homonym, my initial suggestion is somewhat flawed, because it placed the feminine gender label on the entire entry, while it only belongs to the first set of senses.

Best,

 P.

On 27/04/17 11:42, [hidden email] wrote:
Dear Piotr,

Many thanks.

This is pretty much what I agreed on with Laurent, after correcting one mistake in encoding in that the second sense is masculin, and therefore clearly a homonym. I know that hom is deprecated, but I would like to have had a type on sense so as to stress the homonymic nature of the word.

Basnage is fairly consistent in grouping by orthographic word, except when their is a variation in spelling indicating a different word as in his entries for ‘Cane’ (bird) and Cane (plant). Grammar is given as simple abbreviations s. m. for substantive masculin. I am just adding this for the moment as I want to go over this later with specialists of 17th century grammar so as to link the information to current grammatical models.

I am not at the end of surprises with this text as Basnage was constantly experimenting, thereby going far beyond what Furetière had given as entries, which is what makes this such a fascinating dictionary.

Best wishes

Geoffrey

Le 27 avr. 2017 à 11:21, Piotr Banski <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Dear Geoffrey,

Why not assume that repeated <sense> elements signal distinct senses? I assume that you feel bound to the original and need to repeat the form and grammatical information, even though it's fully redundant.

Remarks:
* there's no need to keep <gramGrp> inside <form>
* @ana takes URIs as values
* I understand that the gender information comes from you, as an extra
* I added @n attributes to <sense>s

So how about:

<entry xml:lang="fr" xml:id="Canarie">
<form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
<gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen ana="#fem"
                      /></gramGrp>

 <sense n="1"><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres, vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
 <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>

<sense n="2">
   <form><orth>CANARIE</orth></form>
   <gramGrp><pos ana="#subst">s.</pos><gen
                              ana="#fem"/></gramGrp>
   <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
   <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un canarie femelle.</note>
  </sense>
</entry>

HTH,

Piotr

On 24/04/17 20:56, [hidden email] wrote:
Dear All,

I have been trying to avoid <hom>, but Basnage has done a dirty on me.
He always puts everything under one main entry with a series of
subentries for senses, but here we have two unrelated meetings.

Any ideas on a better way of handling this?

Best

Geoffrey

<entryxml:lang="fr"xml:id="Canarie"><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="subst">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
               <sense><def>Espece d’ancienne danse que quelques-uns
croyent venir des Isles Canaries, &amp;. qui, selon d’autres,
                   vient d’un balet ou mascarade dont les Danseurs
etoient habillez en Rois de Mauritaine, ou Sauvages.</def>
                   <note>En cette danse on s’approche , &amp; on se
recule les uns des autres, en faisant plusieurs partages
                       gaillards , étranges &amp; bizarres qui
representent des Sauvages,</note></sense>

<hom><sense><form><orth>CANARIE</orth><gramGrp><posana="susbt">s.</pos><genana="fem"></gen></gramGrp></form>
               <def>Sorte de petit oiseau qui chante bien qu’on
apporte ordinairement des Isles Canaries. </def>
               <note>On l’appelle autrement ferin. Un canarie mâle, un
canarie femelle.</note>
           </sense></hom></entry>




--
Piotr Bański, Ph.D.
Senior Researcher,
Institut für Deutsche Sprache,
R5 6-13
68-161 Mannheim, Germany

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