mixed content in msIdentifer?

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mixed content in msIdentifer?

Georg Vogeler-2
Dear list,

when transcribing written manuscript references we have often suggested
separators, which are not part of the structured representation in
msIdentifier:

TNA E179/335 would translate into <institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>.

But where to put the slash (/) from the transcription?

The intuition to add it as a separator between the tagging:

<institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection>/<idno>335</idno>

is not available because msIdentifier is not mixedContent.

In reality, the suggestions for separators given by the institution the
manuscript is stored are more than polite, "we wouldn't mind", but
should be considered best practice.

Any ideas where to put the slash?

Best

Geog
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Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?

Laurent Romary
Good morning Georg.
We had a similar situation in the dictionary case and we asked for such elements to have lbl and pc. Would this do the trick for you as well?
Have a good week,
Laurent


Le 31 août 2020 à 08:56, Georg Vogeler <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Dear list,

when transcribing written manuscript references we have often suggested
separators, which are not part of the structured representation in
msIdentifier:

TNA E179/335 would translate into <institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>.

But where to put the slash (/) from the transcription?

The intuition to add it as a separator between the tagging:

<institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection>/<idno>335</idno>

is not available because msIdentifier is not mixedContent.

In reality, the suggestions for separators given by the institution the
manuscript is stored are more than polite, "we wouldn't mind", but
should be considered best practice.

Any ideas where to put the slash?

Best

Geog

Laurent Romary
Inria, team ALMAnaCH






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Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?

Conal Tuohy-3
I like Laurent's suggestion to allow punctuation in a <msIdentifier> element, but in the meantime, you might consider using the @n attribute to capture the preferred form of the identifier, independently of its components:

<msIdentifier n="TNA E179/335">
<institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>
</msIdentifier>


Conal

On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 17:04, Laurent Romary <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good morning Georg.
We had a similar situation in the dictionary case and we asked for such elements to have lbl and pc. Would this do the trick for you as well?
Have a good week,
Laurent


Le 31 août 2020 à 08:56, Georg Vogeler <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Dear list,

when transcribing written manuscript references we have often suggested
separators, which are not part of the structured representation in
msIdentifier:

TNA E179/335 would translate into <institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>.

But where to put the slash (/) from the transcription?

The intuition to add it as a separator between the tagging:

<institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection>/<idno>335</idno>

is not available because msIdentifier is not mixedContent.

In reality, the suggestions for separators given by the institution the
manuscript is stored are more than polite, "we wouldn't mind", but
should be considered best practice.

Any ideas where to put the slash?

Best

Geog

Laurent Romary
Inria, team ALMAnaCH








--
@conal_tuohy
+61-466-324297
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Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?

Torsten Schassan-2
Dear Georg, dear all,

if "TNA E179/335" is what is commonly used as identifier for a given object, this string might as well serve as *the* identifier, parts of which might be repeated in other elements within <msIdentifier>. This might result in this murkup:

<msIdentifier>
  <repository>TNA</repository>
  <collection>E179</collection>
  <idno>TNA E179/335</idno>
</msIdentifier>

Note here, that the most important element to identify the holding institution is <repository>! <institution> is a false friend: Consider a University library, then the University is the institution, but the UL is the repository! And this is where the object can be found!


Mit besten Grüßen,
Torsten

-- 
Torsten Schassan - Abteilung Handschriften und Sondersammlungen / Digitale Editionen
Herzog August Bibliothek, D-38299 Wolfenbuettel, Tel.: +49 5331 808-130 Fax -165
Handschriftendatenbank: http://diglib.hab.de/?db=mss


Von: Conal Tuohy <[hidden email]>
An: <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: 31.08.2020 9:13
Betreff: Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?

I like Laurent's suggestion to allow punctuation in a <msIdentifier> element, but in the meantime, you might consider using the @n attribute to capture the preferred form of the identifier, independently of its components:

<msIdentifier n="TNA E179/335">
<institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>
</msIdentifier>


Conal

On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 17:04, Laurent Romary <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good morning Georg.
We had a similar situation in the dictionary case and we asked for such elements to have lbl and pc. Would this do the trick for you as well?
Have a good week,
Laurent


Le 31 août 2020 à 08:56, Georg Vogeler <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Dear list,

when transcribing written manuscript references we have often suggested
separators, which are not part of the structured representation in
msIdentifier:

TNA E179/335 would translate into <institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>.

But where to put the slash (/) from the transcription?

The intuition to add it as a separator between the tagging:

<institution>TNA</institution>
<collection>E179</collection>/<idno>335</idno>

is not available because msIdentifier is not mixedContent.

In reality, the suggestions for separators given by the institution the
manuscript is stored are more than polite, "we wouldn't mind", but
should be considered best practice.

Any ideas where to put the slash?

Best

Geog

Laurent Romary
Inria, team ALMAnaCH








--
@conal_tuohy
+61-466-324297
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Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?

Georg Vogeler-2
Dear Torsten,

your proposal leaves me confused: is not msIdentifier meant to be *the*
identifier? Reading
https://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/MS.html#msid I find
a full section, explaining how to avoid redundancy. Encoding the current
example as
<msIdentifier><repositor>TNA</repository><idno>E179/335</idno></msIdentifier>
seems to fit to the guidelines (accepting reduced structure), but
duplication of the info from repository and collection not.

Anyway: thanks to all of you for your suggestions!

Georg

Am 31.08.2020 um 09:43 schrieb Torsten Schaßan:

> Dear Georg, dear all,
>
> if "TNA E179/335" is what is commonly used as identifier for a given
> object, this string might as well serve as *the* identifier, parts of
> which might be repeated in other elements within <msIdentifier>. This
> might result in this murkup:
>
> <msIdentifier>
>    <repository>TNA</repository>
>    <collection>E179</collection>
>    <idno>TNA E179/335</idno>
> </msIdentifier>
>
> Note here, that the most important element to identify the holding
> institution is <repository>! <institution> is a false friend: Consider a
> University library, then the University is the institution, but the UL
> is the repository! And this is where the object can be found!
>
>
> Mit besten Grüßen,
> Torsten
>
> --
> Torsten Schassan - Abteilung Handschriften und Sondersammlungen /
> Digitale Editionen
> Herzog August Bibliothek, D-38299 Wolfenbuettel, Tel.: +49 5331 808-130
> Fax -165
> Handschriftendatenbank: http://diglib.hab.de/?db=mss
>
>
> *Von: * Conal Tuohy <[hidden email]>
> *An: * <[hidden email]>
> *Gesendet: * 31.08.2020 9:13
> *Betreff: * Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?
>
>     I like Laurent's suggestion to allow punctuation in a <msIdentifier>
>     element, but in the meantime, you might consider using the @n
>     attribute to capture the preferred form of the identifier,
>     independently of its components:
>
>     <msIdentifier n="TNA E179/335">
>     <institution>TNA</institution>
>     <collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>
>     </msIdentifier>
>
>
>     Conal
>
>     On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 17:04, Laurent Romary
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Good morning Georg.
>         We had a similar situation in the dictionary case and we asked
>         for such elements to have lbl and pc. Would this do the trick
>         for you as well?
>         See https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1702
>         Have a good week,
>         Laurent
>
>
>>         Le 31 août 2020 à 08:56, Georg Vogeler <[hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>> a écrit :
>>
>>         Dear list,
>>
>>         when transcribing written manuscript references we have often
>>         suggested
>>         separators, which are not part of the structured representation in
>>         msIdentifier:
>>
>>         TNA E179/335 would translate into <institution>TNA</institution>
>>         <collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>.
>>
>>         But where to put the slash (/) from the transcription?
>>
>>         The intuition to add it as a separator between the tagging:
>>
>>         <institution>TNA</institution>
>>         <collection>E179</collection>/<idno>335</idno>
>>
>>         is not available because msIdentifier is not mixedContent.
>>
>>         In reality, the suggestions for separators given by the
>>         institution the
>>         manuscript is stored are more than polite, "we wouldn't mind", but
>>         should be considered best practice.
>>
>>         Any ideas where to put the slash?
>>
>>         Best
>>
>>         Geog
>
>         Laurent Romary
>         Inria, team ALMAnaCH
>         [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Conal Tuohy
>     http://conaltuohy.com/
>     @conal_tuohy
>     +61-466-324297
>

--
Prof. Dr. Georg Vogeler

Professur für Digital Humanities -
Zentrum für Informationsmodellierung
Universität Graz
A-8010 Graz | Elisabethstraße 59/III
Tel. +43 316 380 8033
<http://informationsmodellierung.uni-graz.at> - <http://gams.uni-graz.at>
<https://online.uni-graz.at/kfu_online/wbForschungsportal.cbShowPortal?pPersonNr=80075>

Director of the Austrian Center for Digital Humanities at OeAW
<https://acdh.oeaw.ac.at>

Institut für Dokumentologie und Editorik e.V. <http://www.i-d-e.de>
International Center for Archival Research ICARus <http://www.icar-us.eu>
Digital Medievalist <http://digitalmedievalist.org>
Text Encoding Initiative <http://tei-c.org>
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Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?

Torsten Schassan-2
Dear Georg,

you are right (and wrong): The guidelines state:

"Major manuscript repositories will usually have a preferred form of citation for manuscript shelfmarks, including rules about punctuation, spacing, abbreviation, etc., which should be adhered to. Where such a format also contains information which might additionally be supplied as a distinct subcomponent of the msIdentifier, for example a collection name, a decision must be taken as to whether to use the more specific element, or to include such information within the idno element."

On the other hand, my example encoding was lacking the information about the proper name of TNA which should be given in the unabridged form within <repository> to make myself clearer. The encoding of your example would have been (more) useful if it looked like this:

<msIdentifier>
<repository>The National Archives</repository>
<collection>Hearth Tax records (E179)</collection>
<idno>TNA E179/335</idno>
</msIdentifier>

Mit besten Grüßen,
Torsten

-- 
Torsten Schassan - Abteilung Handschriften und Sondersammlungen / Digitale Editionen
Herzog August Bibliothek, D-38299 Wolfenbuettel, Tel.: +49 5331 808-130 Fax -165
Handschriftendatenbank: http://diglib.hab.de/?db=mss


Von: Georg Vogeler <[hidden email]>
An: <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: 06.09.2020 8:37
Betreff: Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?

Dear Torsten,

your proposal leaves me confused: is not msIdentifier meant to be *the*
identifier? Reading
https://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/MS.html#msid I find
a full section, explaining how to avoid redundancy. Encoding the current
example as
<msIdentifier><repositor>TNA</repository><idno>E179/335</idno></msIdentifier>
seems to fit to the guidelines (accepting reduced structure), but
duplication of the info from repository and collection not.

Anyway: thanks to all of you for your suggestions!

Georg

Am 31.08.2020 um 09:43 schrieb Torsten Schaßan:

> Dear Georg, dear all,
>
> if "TNA E179/335" is what is commonly used as identifier for a given
> object, this string might as well serve as *the* identifier, parts of
> which might be repeated in other elements within <msIdentifier>. This
> might result in this murkup:
>
> <msIdentifier>
>    <repository>TNA</repository>
>    <collection>E179</collection>
>    <idno>TNA E179/335</idno>
> </msIdentifier>
>
> Note here, that the most important element to identify the holding
> institution is <repository>! <institution> is a false friend: Consider a
> University library, then the University is the institution, but the UL
> is the repository! And this is where the object can be found!
>
>
> Mit besten Grüßen,
> Torsten
>
> --
> Torsten Schassan - Abteilung Handschriften und Sondersammlungen /
> Digitale Editionen
> Herzog August Bibliothek, D-38299 Wolfenbuettel, Tel.: +49 5331 808-130
> Fax -165
> Handschriftendatenbank: http://diglib.hab.de/?db=mss
>
>
> *Von: * Conal Tuohy <[hidden email]>
> *An: * <[hidden email]>
> *Gesendet: * 31.08.2020 9:13
> *Betreff: * Re: mixed content in msIdentifer?
>
>     I like Laurent's suggestion to allow punctuation in a <msIdentifier>
>     element, but in the meantime, you might consider using the @n
>     attribute to capture the preferred form of the identifier,
>     independently of its components:
>
>     <msIdentifier n="TNA E179/335">
>     <institution>TNA</institution>
>     <collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>
>     </msIdentifier>
>
>
>     Conal
>
>     On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 17:04, Laurent Romary
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Good morning Georg.
>         We had a similar situation in the dictionary case and we asked
>         for such elements to have lbl and pc. Would this do the trick
>         for you as well?
>         See https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1702
>         Have a good week,
>         Laurent
>
>
>>         Le 31 août 2020 à 08:56, Georg Vogeler <[hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>> a écrit :
>>
>>         Dear list,
>>
>>         when transcribing written manuscript references we have often
>>         suggested
>>         separators, which are not part of the structured representation in
>>         msIdentifier:
>>
>>         TNA E179/335 would translate into <institution>TNA</institution>
>>         <collection>E179</collection> <idno>335</idno>.
>>
>>         But where to put the slash (/) from the transcription?
>>
>>         The intuition to add it as a separator between the tagging:
>>
>>         <institution>TNA</institution>
>>         <collection>E179</collection>/<idno>335</idno>
>>
>>         is not available because msIdentifier is not mixedContent.
>>
>>         In reality, the suggestions for separators given by the
>>         institution the
>>         manuscript is stored are more than polite, "we wouldn't mind", but
>>         should be considered best practice.
>>
>>         Any ideas where to put the slash?
>>
>>         Best
>>
>>         Geog
>
>         Laurent Romary
>         Inria, team ALMAnaCH
>         [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Conal Tuohy
>     http://conaltuohy.com/
>     @conal_tuohy
>     +61-466-324297
>

--
Prof. Dr. Georg Vogeler

Professur für Digital Humanities -
Zentrum für Informationsmodellierung
Universität Graz
A-8010 Graz | Elisabethstraße 59/III
Tel. +43 316 380 8033
<http://informationsmodellierung.uni-graz.at> - <http://gams.uni-graz.at>
<https://online.uni-graz.at/kfu_online/wbForschungsportal.cbShowPortal?pPersonNr=80075>

Director of the Austrian Center for Digital Humanities at OeAW
<https://acdh.oeaw.ac.at>

Institut für Dokumentologie und Editorik e.V. <http://www.i-d-e.de>
International Center for Archival Research ICARus <http://www.icar-us.eu>
Digital Medievalist <http://digitalmedievalist.org>
Text Encoding Initiative <http://tei-c.org>