places, dates

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
29 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

places, dates

Pietro Liuzzo
Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Elisa Beshero-Bondar-2
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

richard light

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:id">xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:ids">xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Elisa Beshero-Bondar
Hi Richard,
Well, the specs for placeName (see http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-placeName.html ) indicate that it's datable, and that can be pretty useful depending on your project. I like how Pietro is thinking about place here: A place changes in distinctiveness over time, and a given placeName has a distinctness associated with time. I rather admire that encoding.

Best,
Elisa

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Richard Light <[hidden email]> wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light



--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail:[hidden email]
Development site: http://newtfire.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Lou Burnard-6
In reply to this post by Pietro Liuzzo
On 06/06/17 12:44, Pietro Liuzzo wrote:

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

The dating attributes here should really refer to the application of the name i.e. this means that
-- the text says "gondar"
-- the encoder think that this is a placename
-- the encoder thinks that the place corresponding with this name is the one indicated at the url above
So far so good.

But the encoding also says that these interpretations only apply between 1540 and 1559. Which is not what I think you intended. You might be meaning to say something about "the following year", but in that case you should have put the attributes on that phrase. As it is you are saying that this name only corresponds with this place during that time period.



<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.


I don't understand what you are trying to say with your @corresp here at all. What is #title1? Also, if you put an xml:id on your <placeName> you will have a problem next time the same name turns up in your document.

If you just want to indicate more exactly the place of origin of the source  you could use <origPlace> within <creation>





any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Lou Burnard-6
In reply to this post by richard light
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:id" moz-do-not-send="true">xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:ids" moz-do-not-send="true">xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

John P. McCaskey-2
In reply to this post by Pietro Liuzzo

It can be tough on a consumer of TEI files that both

He went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar">Gondar</placeName>.

and

He went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" />.

are allowed. The second is fragile. With the first, the consumer has some way to complete the sentence, even if the referenced URI is inaccessible or the structure of its contents unknown. If the consumer does have enough information and access to the referenced URI, the contents of the <placeName> can easily enough be replaced.

If the second is used, do specify somewhere what one would expect to find at the referenced URI.

-- John


On 6/6/2017 7:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo wrote:
Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:id">xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:ids">xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Carlson, Thomas Andrew
In reply to this post by Lou Burnard-6

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:id" moz-do-not-send="true">xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:ids" moz-do-not-send="true"> xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Pietro Liuzzo
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light





--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Pietro Liuzzo
I should have checked before sending the email, sorry, I cannot use event because it is not allowed inside an ab where I have my text.

2017-06-07 7:29 GMT+02:00 Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light





--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Elisa Beshero-Bondar
Pietro: Well, I, for one, think you made the right decision with setting the dates right on the placeName elements, and your solution strikes me as not only elegant but definitely conformant with the TEI, which clearly permits us to set date ranges on places. I do understand others' calls to use event, but I like the notion of resisting that additional layering, because after all what you are doing is collecting locations and adding attributes to indicate the time period associated with a place. If I understand your post, the information you are collecting and serving with your markup is data marking place and time. You can mark time *on* place, and to access context, you could extract the surrounding <ab> element rather than troubling with an additional intervening/overlapping layer of markup. The simplicity of your approach is what I admired about it from the start. 

Best,
Elisa

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 11:00 PM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:
I should have checked before sending the email, sorry, I cannot use event because it is not allowed inside an ab where I have my text.

2017-06-07 7:29 GMT+02:00 Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light





--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail:[hidden email]
Development site: http://newtfire.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Eduard Drenth
In reply to this post by Pietro Liuzzo
Hi,


You may consider creating a customization allowing event inside ab. Though I do not know the considerations to not allow event inside ab.


Something like this in your odd:

                <elementSpec ident="ab" module="linking" mode="change">
                    <desc>allowing event within ab in order to.....</desc>
                    <content>
                        <elementRef key="event"/>
                    </content>
                </elementSpec>


Eduard Drenth, Software Architekt


[hidden email]


Doelestrjitte 8

8911 DX  Ljouwert

+31 58 234 30 47


gpg: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x065EF82A1E02CC43




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 8:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
I should have checked before sending the email, sorry, I cannot use event because it is not allowed inside an ab where I have my text.

2017-06-07 7:29 GMT+02:00 Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light





--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)
MLH
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

places, dates

MLH
In reply to this post by Pietro Liuzzo

Dear Pietro et al.,

I agree with Richard, Lou that the date attributes don't belong on <placeName>, but I'm not sure where they do belong in this case.

I guess that <event> is not what you are after, because the event described takes place in a particular year ("the following year") not in a date range.

So does the date range relate to the date when the chronicle was written, or of a manuscript in which it is described? If you are encoding the chronicle as a whole, then these dates would go somewhere in <sourceDesc> (and they would apply globally, presumably, to all the places mentioned in the chronicle). Maybe we need to know a little more about the larger structure of your encoding?

Matthew




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of TEI-L automatic digest system <[hidden email]>
Sent: 07 June 2017 04:00
To: [hidden email]
Subject: TEI-L Digest - 2 Jun 2017 to 6 Jun 2017 (#2017-129)
 
There are 8 messages totaling 2184 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. places, dates (8)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 13:44:18 +0200
From:    Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>
Subject: places, dates

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For
example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place
mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.

e.g.

*the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.*

We would like to say something like

*the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
<http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>*

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the
chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
encode this  like

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos"
>
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"
xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation>

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp
pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that
pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 07:26:50 -0700
From:    Elisa <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here.

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like
>
> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:52:03 +0100
From:    Richard Light <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The
notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my
mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself
which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two
other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this
event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of
the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly
marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly
<creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
> Dear Pietro,
> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want
> to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a
> specific date range.
>
> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since
> you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems
> redundant here.
>
> Hope that helps!
> Elisa
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
> E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> | Development
> site: http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>
>
> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>
> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
>> attestations.
>>
>> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI
>> files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to
>> relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the
>> chronicle.
>>
>> e.g.
>>
>> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>>
>> We would like to say something like
>>
>> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
>> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
>> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>>
>> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation
>> in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>>
>> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
>> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
>> encode this  like
>>
>> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
>> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
>> <date>1563</date>
>> and
>> <date>1581</date>
>> , probably at
>> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
>> .
>> </creation>
>>
>> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
>> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
>> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>>
>> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>>
>> Thanks a lot
>> Pietro

--
*Richard Light*

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 09:05:53 -0700
From:    Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hi Richard,
Well, the specs for placeName (see
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-placeName.html )
indicate that it's datable, and that can be pretty useful depending on your
project. I like how Pietro is thinking about place here: A place changes in
distinctiveness over time, and a given placeName has a distinctness
associated with time. I rather admire that encoding.

Best,
Elisa

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Richard Light <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Elisa, Pietro,
>
> Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The
> notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind,
> putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which
> existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other
> events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in
> the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore
> and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at
> present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)
>
> Richard
> On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
>
> Dear Pietro,
> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do
> this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date
> range.
>
> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you
> have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant
> here.
>
> Hope that helps!
> Elisa
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
> E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org
>
> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>
> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
> attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For
> example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place
> mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> *the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.*
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> *the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>*
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the
> chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
> encode this  like
>
> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1
> #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"
> xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable
> from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro
>
>
> --
> *Richard Light*
>



--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Development site: http://newtfire.org

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:18:34 +0100
From:    Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

On 06/06/17 12:44, Pietro Liuzzo wrote:
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/

The dating attributes here should really refer to the application of the
name i.e. this means that
-- the text says "gondar"
-- the encoder think that this is a placename
-- the encoder thinks that the place corresponding with this name is the
one indicated at the url above
So far so good.

But the encoding also says that these interpretations only apply between
1540 and 1559. Which is not what I think you intended. You might be
meaning to say something about "the following year", but in that case
you should have put the attributes on that phrase. As it is you are
saying that this name only corresponds with this place during that time
period.


>
> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>

I don't understand what you are trying to say with your @corresp here at
all. What is #title1? Also, if you put an xml:id on your <placeName> you
will have a problem next time the same name turns up in your document.

If you just want to indicate more exactly the place of origin of the
source  you could use <origPlace> within <creation>





> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:23:25 +0100
From:    Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably
not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of
many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place
identified as /http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
<http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>/LOC3577Gondar  was known
as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's
information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:
>
> Elisa, Pietro,
>
> Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation? 
> The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To
> my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place
> itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There
> are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording
> of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate
> recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these
> events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply
> <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)
>
> Richard
>
> On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
>> Dear Pietro,
>> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want
>> to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a
>> specific date range.
>>
>> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
>> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since
>> you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems
>> redundant here.
>>
>> Hope that helps!
>> Elisa
>>
>> --
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>> Director, Center for the Digital Text
>> Associate Professor of English
>> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
>> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
>> E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> | Development site:
>> http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>
>>
>> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
>>> attestations.
>>>
>>> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI
>>> files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like
>>> to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to
>>> the chronicle.
>>>
>>> e.g.
>>>
>>> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>>>
>>> We would like to say something like
>>>
>>> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
>>> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
>>> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>>>
>>> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation
>>> in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>>>
>>> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of
>>> an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently
>>> attempt to encode this  like
>>>
>>> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1
>>> #Phayqestifanos">
>>> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
>>> <date>1563</date>
>>> and
>>> <date>1581</date>
>>> , probably at
>>> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
>>> .
>>> </creation>
>>>
>>> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
>>> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
>>> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>>>
>>> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot
>>> Pietro
>
> --
> *Richard Light*


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 12:45:29 -0400
From:    "John P. McCaskey" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

It can be tough on a consumer of TEI files that both

    He went to <placeName
    ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar">Gondar</placeName>.

and

    He went to <placeName
    ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" />.

are allowed. The second is fragile. With the first, the consumer has
some way to complete the sentence, even if the referenced URI is
inaccessible or the structure of its contents unknown. If the consumer
does have enough information and access to the referenced URI, the
contents of the <placeName> can easily enough be replaced.

If the second is used, do specify somewhere what one would expect to
find at the referenced URI.

-- John


On 6/6/2017 7:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
> attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files.
> For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate
> the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in
> the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
> encode this  like
>
> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:25:23 +0000
From:    "Carlson, Thomas Andrew" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas

________________________________
From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here.

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email]<[hidden email]> | Development site: http://newtfire.org<http://newtfire.org/>

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.

e.g.

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.

We would like to say something like

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation>

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light

------------------------------

End of TEI-L Digest - 2 Jun 2017 to 6 Jun 2017 (#2017-129)
**********************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Eduard Drenth

But event being att.datable I think a datarange should be ok for event as far as the syntax goes.


So if it is uncertain when the event took place a range on event is a nice solution.


Eduard Drenth, Software Architekt


[hidden email]


Doelestrjitte 8

8911 DX  Ljouwert

+31 58 234 30 47


gpg: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x065EF82A1E02CC43




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of MLH <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 12:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: places, dates
 

Dear Pietro et al.,

I agree with Richard, Lou that the date attributes don't belong on <placeName>, but I'm not sure where they do belong in this case.

I guess that <event> is not what you are after, because the event described takes place in a particular year ("the following year") not in a date range.

So does the date range relate to the date when the chronicle was written, or of a manuscript in which it is described? If you are encoding the chronicle as a whole, then these dates would go somewhere in <sourceDesc> (and they would apply globally, presumably, to all the places mentioned in the chronicle). Maybe we need to know a little more about the larger structure of your encoding?

Matthew




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of TEI-L automatic digest system <[hidden email]>
Sent: 07 June 2017 04:00
To: [hidden email]
Subject: TEI-L Digest - 2 Jun 2017 to 6 Jun 2017 (#2017-129)
 
There are 8 messages totaling 2184 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. places, dates (8)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 13:44:18 +0200
From:    Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>
Subject: places, dates

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For
example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place
mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.

e.g.

*the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.*

We would like to say something like

*the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
<http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>*

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the
chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
encode this  like

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos"
>
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"
xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation>

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp
pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that
pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 07:26:50 -0700
From:    Elisa <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here.

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like
>
> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:52:03 +0100
From:    Richard Light <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The
notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my
mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself
which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two
other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this
event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of
the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly
marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly
<creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
> Dear Pietro,
> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want
> to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a
> specific date range.
>
> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since
> you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems
> redundant here.
>
> Hope that helps!
> Elisa
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
> E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> | Development
> site: http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>
>
> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>
> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
>> attestations.
>>
>> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI
>> files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to
>> relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the
>> chronicle.
>>
>> e.g.
>>
>> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>>
>> We would like to say something like
>>
>> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
>> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
>> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>>
>> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation
>> in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>>
>> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
>> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
>> encode this  like
>>
>> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
>> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
>> <date>1563</date>
>> and
>> <date>1581</date>
>> , probably at
>> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
>> .
>> </creation>
>>
>> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
>> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
>> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>>
>> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>>
>> Thanks a lot
>> Pietro

--
*Richard Light*

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 09:05:53 -0700
From:    Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hi Richard,
Well, the specs for placeName (see
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-placeName.html )
indicate that it's datable, and that can be pretty useful depending on your
project. I like how Pietro is thinking about place here: A place changes in
distinctiveness over time, and a given placeName has a distinctness
associated with time. I rather admire that encoding.

Best,
Elisa

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Richard Light <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Elisa, Pietro,
>
> Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The
> notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind,
> putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which
> existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other
> events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in
> the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore
> and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at
> present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)
>
> Richard
> On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
>
> Dear Pietro,
> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do
> this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date
> range.
>
> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you
> have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant
> here.
>
> Hope that helps!
> Elisa
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
> E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org
>
> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>
> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
> attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For
> example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place
> mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> *the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.*
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> *the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>*
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the
> chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
> encode this  like
>
> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1
> #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"
> xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable
> from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro
>
>
> --
> *Richard Light*
>



--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Development site: http://newtfire.org

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:18:34 +0100
From:    Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

On 06/06/17 12:44, Pietro Liuzzo wrote:
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/

The dating attributes here should really refer to the application of the
name i.e. this means that
-- the text says "gondar"
-- the encoder think that this is a placename
-- the encoder thinks that the place corresponding with this name is the
one indicated at the url above
So far so good.

But the encoding also says that these interpretations only apply between
1540 and 1559. Which is not what I think you intended. You might be
meaning to say something about "the following year", but in that case
you should have put the attributes on that phrase. As it is you are
saying that this name only corresponds with this place during that time
period.


>
> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>

I don't understand what you are trying to say with your @corresp here at
all. What is #title1? Also, if you put an xml:id on your <placeName> you
will have a problem next time the same name turns up in your document.

If you just want to indicate more exactly the place of origin of the
source  you could use <origPlace> within <creation>





> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:23:25 +0100
From:    Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably
not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of
many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place
identified as /http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
<http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>/LOC3577Gondar  was known
as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's
information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:
>
> Elisa, Pietro,
>
> Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation? 
> The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To
> my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place
> itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There
> are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording
> of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate
> recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these
> events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply
> <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)
>
> Richard
>
> On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
>> Dear Pietro,
>> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want
>> to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a
>> specific date range.
>>
>> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
>> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since
>> you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems
>> redundant here.
>>
>> Hope that helps!
>> Elisa
>>
>> --
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>> Director, Center for the Digital Text
>> Associate Professor of English
>> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
>> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
>> E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> | Development site:
>> http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>
>>
>> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
>>> attestations.
>>>
>>> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI
>>> files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like
>>> to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to
>>> the chronicle.
>>>
>>> e.g.
>>>
>>> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>>>
>>> We would like to say something like
>>>
>>> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
>>> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
>>> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>>>
>>> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation
>>> in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>>>
>>> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of
>>> an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently
>>> attempt to encode this  like
>>>
>>> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1
>>> #Phayqestifanos">
>>> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
>>> <date>1563</date>
>>> and
>>> <date>1581</date>
>>> , probably at
>>> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
>>> .
>>> </creation>
>>>
>>> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
>>> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
>>> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>>>
>>> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot
>>> Pietro
>
> --
> *Richard Light*


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 12:45:29 -0400
From:    "John P. McCaskey" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

It can be tough on a consumer of TEI files that both

    He went to <placeName
    ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar">Gondar</placeName>.

and

    He went to <placeName
    ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" />.

are allowed. The second is fragile. With the first, the consumer has
some way to complete the sentence, even if the referenced URI is
inaccessible or the structure of its contents unknown. If the consumer
does have enough information and access to the referenced URI, the
contents of the <placeName> can easily enough be replaced.

If the second is used, do specify somewhere what one would expect to
find at the referenced URI.

-- John


On 6/6/2017 7:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
> attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files.
> For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate
> the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in
> the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
> encode this  like
>
> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:25:23 +0000
From:    "Carlson, Thomas Andrew" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas

________________________________
From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here.

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email]<[hidden email]> | Development site: http://newtfire.org<http://newtfire.org/>

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.

e.g.

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.

We would like to say something like

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation>

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light

------------------------------

End of TEI-L Digest - 2 Jun 2017 to 6 Jun 2017 (#2017-129)
**********************************************************
MLH
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

MLH

Hi Eduard,

I didn't mean that a date range on <event> was semantically wrong -- but in the example given, which seemed to refer to a particular year, the date range given seemed inappropriate -- which led me to think that the date range must be referring to something other than that event.

There is no problem in general in using a date range on <event>, for sure.

Matthew




From: Eduard Drenth <[hidden email]>
Sent: 07 June 2017 10:41
To: [hidden email]; MLH
Subject: Re: places, dates
 

But event being att.datable I think a datarange should be ok for event as far as the syntax goes.


So if it is uncertain when the event took place a range on event is a nice solution.


Eduard Drenth, Software Architekt


[hidden email]


Doelestrjitte 8

8911 DX  Ljouwert

+31 58 234 30 47


gpg: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x065EF82A1E02CC43




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of MLH <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 12:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: places, dates
 

Dear Pietro et al.,

I agree with Richard, Lou that the date attributes don't belong on <placeName>, but I'm not sure where they do belong in this case.

I guess that <event> is not what you are after, because the event described takes place in a particular year ("the following year") not in a date range.

So does the date range relate to the date when the chronicle was written, or of a manuscript in which it is described? If you are encoding the chronicle as a whole, then these dates would go somewhere in <sourceDesc> (and they would apply globally, presumably, to all the places mentioned in the chronicle). Maybe we need to know a little more about the larger structure of your encoding?

Matthew




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of TEI-L automatic digest system <[hidden email]>
Sent: 07 June 2017 04:00
To: [hidden email]
Subject: TEI-L Digest - 2 Jun 2017 to 6 Jun 2017 (#2017-129)
 
There are 8 messages totaling 2184 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. places, dates (8)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 13:44:18 +0200
From:    Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>
Subject: places, dates

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For
example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place
mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.

e.g.

*the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.*

We would like to say something like

*the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
<http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>*

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the
chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
encode this  like

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos"
>
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"
xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation>

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp
pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that
pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 07:26:50 -0700
From:    Elisa <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here.

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like
>
> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:52:03 +0100
From:    Richard Light <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The
notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my
mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself
which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two
other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this
event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of
the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly
marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly
<creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
> Dear Pietro,
> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want
> to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a
> specific date range.
>
> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since
> you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems
> redundant here.
>
> Hope that helps!
> Elisa
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
> E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> | Development
> site: http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>
>
> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>
> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
>> attestations.
>>
>> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI
>> files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to
>> relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the
>> chronicle.
>>
>> e.g.
>>
>> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>>
>> We would like to say something like
>>
>> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
>> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
>> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>>
>> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation
>> in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>>
>> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
>> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
>> encode this  like
>>
>> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
>> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
>> <date>1563</date>
>> and
>> <date>1581</date>
>> , probably at
>> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
>> .
>> </creation>
>>
>> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
>> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
>> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>>
>> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>>
>> Thanks a lot
>> Pietro

--
*Richard Light*

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 09:05:53 -0700
From:    Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hi Richard,
Well, the specs for placeName (see
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-placeName.html )
indicate that it's datable, and that can be pretty useful depending on your
project. I like how Pietro is thinking about place here: A place changes in
distinctiveness over time, and a given placeName has a distinctness
associated with time. I rather admire that encoding.

Best,
Elisa

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Richard Light <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Elisa, Pietro,
>
> Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The
> notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind,
> putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which
> existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other
> events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in
> the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore
> and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at
> present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)
>
> Richard
> On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
>
> Dear Pietro,
> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do
> this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date
> range.
>
> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you
> have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant
> here.
>
> Hope that helps!
> Elisa
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text
> Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
> E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org
>
> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>
> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
> attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For
> example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place
> mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> *the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.*
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> *the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>*
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the
> chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
> encode this  like
>
> <creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1
> #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"
> xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable
> from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro
>
>
> --
> *Richard Light*
>



--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Development site: http://newtfire.org

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:18:34 +0100
From:    Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

On 06/06/17 12:44, Pietro Liuzzo wrote:
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/

The dating attributes here should really refer to the application of the
name i.e. this means that
-- the text says "gondar"
-- the encoder think that this is a placename
-- the encoder thinks that the place corresponding with this name is the
one indicated at the url above
So far so good.

But the encoding also says that these interpretations only apply between
1540 and 1559. Which is not what I think you intended. You might be
meaning to say something about "the following year", but in that case
you should have put the attributes on that phrase. As it is you are
saying that this name only corresponds with this place during that time
period.


>
> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>

I don't understand what you are trying to say with your @corresp here at
all. What is #title1? Also, if you put an xml:id on your <placeName> you
will have a problem next time the same name turns up in your document.

If you just want to indicate more exactly the place of origin of the
source  you could use <origPlace> within <creation>





> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:23:25 +0100
From:    Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably
not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of
many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place
identified as /http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
<http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>/LOC3577Gondar  was known
as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's
information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:
>
> Elisa, Pietro,
>
> Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation? 
> The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To
> my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place
> itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There
> are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording
> of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate
> recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these
> events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply
> <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)
>
> Richard
>
> On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
>> Dear Pietro,
>> The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want
>> to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a
>> specific date range.
>>
>> For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I
>> wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since
>> you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems
>> redundant here.
>>
>> Hope that helps!
>> Elisa
>>
>> --
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>> Director, Center for the Digital Text
>> Associate Professor of English
>> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
>> 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
>> E-mail: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> | Development site:
>> http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>
>>
>> Typeset by hand on my iPad
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
>>> attestations.
>>>
>>> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI
>>> files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like
>>> to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to
>>> the chronicle.
>>>
>>> e.g.
>>>
>>> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>>>
>>> We would like to say something like
>>>
>>> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
>>> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
>>> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>>>
>>> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation
>>> in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>>>
>>> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of
>>> an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently
>>> attempt to encode this  like
>>>
>>> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1
>>> #Phayqestifanos">
>>> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
>>> <date>1563</date>
>>> and
>>> <date>1581</date>
>>> , probably at
>>> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
>>> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
>>> .
>>> </creation>
>>>
>>> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
>>> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
>>> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>>>
>>> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot
>>> Pietro
>
> --
> *Richard Light*


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 12:45:29 -0400
From:    "John P. McCaskey" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

It can be tough on a consumer of TEI files that both

    He went to <placeName
    ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar">Gondar</placeName>.

and

    He went to <placeName
    ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" />.

are allowed. The second is fragile. With the first, the consumer has
some way to complete the sentence, even if the referenced URI is
inaccessible or the structure of its contents unknown. If the consumer
does have enough information and access to the referenced URI, the
contents of the <placeName> can easily enough be replaced.

If the second is used, do specify somewhere what one would expect to
find at the referenced URI.

-- John


On 6/6/2017 7:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places
> attestations.
>
> We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files.
> For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate
> the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.
>
> e.g.
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to Gondar./
>
> We would like to say something like
>
> /the following year King Claudius went to <placeName
> ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>LOC3577Gondar"
> notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>/
>
> where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in
> the chornicle only. Does this make sense?
>
> We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an
> encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to
> encode this  like
>
> <creationnotBefore="1563"notAfter="1581"corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
> The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
> <date>1563</date>
> and
> <date>1581</date>
> , probably at
> <placeNameref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/
> <http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/>INS0327DHE"xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
> .
> </creation>
>
> but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the
> corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically
> recognizable from that pointing to the place.
>
> any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!
>
> Thanks a lot
> Pietro

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:25:23 +0000
From:    "Carlson, Thomas Andrew" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: places, dates

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas

________________________________
From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates

Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here.

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email]<[hidden email]> | Development site: http://newtfire.org<http://newtfire.org/>

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle.

e.g.

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar.

We would like to say something like

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation>

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light

------------------------------

End of TEI-L Digest - 2 Jun 2017 to 6 Jun 2017 (#2017-129)
**********************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Daniele
In reply to this post by Eduard Drenth

Dear Pietro,
I'm agree with Richard and Lou, the attributes on <placeName> refer to the place not to the event. Eduard's solution, it seems to me, manages all cases of event if you customize the element <event> too (for example <placeName> doesn't be contained by <event>), but yours files will be only valid with your customization of the schema.
if I had to encode your example, I would use <seg> and <date>:


<seg type="event"><date notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year</date> King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></seg>


I'm not sure this solution manages all cases of event: does each span of text, that you encode like event, contain a date in any format?


Daniele


On 07/06/2017 09:04, Eduard Drenth wrote:
Hi,


You may consider creating a customization allowing event inside ab. Though I do not know the considerations to not allow event inside ab.


Something like this in your odd:

                <elementSpec ident="ab" module="linking" mode="change">
                    <desc>allowing event within ab in order to.....</desc>
                    <content>
                        <elementRef key="event"/>
                    </content>
                </elementSpec>


Eduard Drenth, Software Architekt


[hidden email]


Doelestrjitte 8

8911 DX  Ljouwert

+31 58 234 30 47


gpg: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x065EF82A1E02CC43




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [hidden email] on behalf of Pietro Liuzzo [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 8:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
I should have checked before sending the email, sorry, I cannot use event because it is not allowed inside an ab where I have my text.

2017-06-07 7:29 GMT+02:00 Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:id=">xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light





--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Elisa Beshero-Bondar
Dear people,
Our examples of <event> in the Guidelines clearly indicate a specific use of it inside personography or list files: see http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/examples-event.html  , and our specs are pretty clear: The event element is contained *only* by
namesdates: event listEvent org person personGrp place

So it would be appropriate to set the event element inside a place element in a "placeography" list, or inside a list of events, but presumably Pietro isn't encoding event inside a list construction. Pietro, you wouldn't be using event inside a p element either, at least not in a way that's TEI conformant.

Let's take another look at att.datable: There's a big list of members, and it clearly includes placeName as well as persName. It looks to me as if Pietro is doing markup inline of a chronicle. Why, you may ask, would someone put attributes belonging to time on a placeName? Pietro is showing us a reason to do it, and the Guidelines certainly permit it. Rather than force-fitting a customization of the TEI that  doesn't conform to our Guidelines, I think the simpler solution that Pietro originally proposed is really the best one. What does it mean to set notBefore and notAfter on a placeName element? It means, quite simply, the placeName Gondar not before 1540 and not after 1559. It's simple, doesn't involve any customization work, and also doesn't complicate his text encoding with elements that will pose overlap problems. Also, he can explain his encoding decisions to his site visitors and it's clear he can use this encoding very smoothly for processing. Let's rethink the urgency of imposing event here.

Best,
Elisa 

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:53 AM, Daniele Marotta <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Pietro,
I'm agree with Richard and Lou, the attributes on <placeName> refer to the place not to the event. Eduard's solution, it seems to me, manages all cases of event if you customize the element <event> too (for example <placeName> doesn't be contained by <event>), but yours files will be only valid with your customization of the schema.
if I had to encode your example, I would use <seg> and <date>:


<seg type="event"><date notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year</date> King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></seg>


I'm not sure this solution manages all cases of event: does each span of text, that you encode like event, contain a date in any format?


Daniele


On 07/06/2017 09:04, Eduard Drenth wrote:
Hi,


You may consider creating a customization allowing event inside ab. Though I do not know the considerations to not allow event inside ab.


Something like this in your odd:

                <elementSpec ident="ab" module="linking" mode="change">
                    <desc>allowing event within ab in order to.....</desc>
                    <content>
                        <elementRef key="event"/>
                    </content>
                </elementSpec>


Eduard Drenth, Software Architekt


[hidden email]


Doelestrjitte 8

8911 DX  Ljouwert

+31 58 234 30 47


gpg: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x065EF82A1E02CC43




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [hidden email] on behalf of Pietro Liuzzo [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 8:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
I should have checked before sending the email, sorry, I cannot use event because it is not allowed inside an ab where I have my text.

2017-06-07 7:29 GMT+02:00 Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light





--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)




--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail:[hidden email]
Development site: http://newtfire.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Elisa Beshero-Bondar
Before we get involved in a semantic dispute about whether the *name* of a place can be said to be qualified temporally, consider:

Paris of 1880 to 1900 is distinct from Paris of 1950-1960. That which we name Paris (marking with placeName) differs semantically when we set a date range on it. In the text that Pietro is marking, it struck me with clarity that Pietro is doing the research work of disambiguation when he sets @notBefore and @notAfter on placeName. 

The following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

Those dates aren't available in the text, and neither is the suggestion of a date range. This is metadata, and I suppose Pietro might mark it with an editorial note, but again, the simplicity of this markup for processing, *and* its conformance with our Guidelines is what I want to emphasize here. I think Pietro's showing us a very clear and helpful explanation of *why* placeName is a member of att.datable in the first place.

Best,
Elisa



On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:58 AM, Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear people,
Our examples of <event> in the Guidelines clearly indicate a specific use of it inside personography or list files: see http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/examples-event.html  , and our specs are pretty clear: The event element is contained *only* by
namesdates: event listEvent org person personGrp place

So it would be appropriate to set the event element inside a place element in a "placeography" list, or inside a list of events, but presumably Pietro isn't encoding event inside a list construction. Pietro, you wouldn't be using event inside a p element either, at least not in a way that's TEI conformant.

Let's take another look at att.datable: There's a big list of members, and it clearly includes placeName as well as persName. It looks to me as if Pietro is doing markup inline of a chronicle. Why, you may ask, would someone put attributes belonging to time on a placeName? Pietro is showing us a reason to do it, and the Guidelines certainly permit it. Rather than force-fitting a customization of the TEI that  doesn't conform to our Guidelines, I think the simpler solution that Pietro originally proposed is really the best one. What does it mean to set notBefore and notAfter on a placeName element? It means, quite simply, the placeName Gondar not before 1540 and not after 1559. It's simple, doesn't involve any customization work, and also doesn't complicate his text encoding with elements that will pose overlap problems. Also, he can explain his encoding decisions to his site visitors and it's clear he can use this encoding very smoothly for processing. Let's rethink the urgency of imposing event here.

Best,
Elisa 

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:53 AM, Daniele Marotta <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Pietro,
I'm agree with Richard and Lou, the attributes on <placeName> refer to the place not to the event. Eduard's solution, it seems to me, manages all cases of event if you customize the element <event> too (for example <placeName> doesn't be contained by <event>), but yours files will be only valid with your customization of the schema.
if I had to encode your example, I would use <seg> and <date>:


<seg type="event"><date notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year</date> King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></seg>


I'm not sure this solution manages all cases of event: does each span of text, that you encode like event, contain a date in any format?


Daniele


On 07/06/2017 09:04, Eduard Drenth wrote:
Hi,


You may consider creating a customization allowing event inside ab. Though I do not know the considerations to not allow event inside ab.


Something like this in your odd:

                <elementSpec ident="ab" module="linking" mode="change">
                    <desc>allowing event within ab in order to.....</desc>
                    <content>
                        <elementRef key="event"/>
                    </content>
                </elementSpec>


Eduard Drenth, Software Architekt


[hidden email]


Doelestrjitte 8

8911 DX  Ljouwert

+31 58 234 30 47


gpg: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x065EF82A1E02CC43




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [hidden email] on behalf of Pietro Liuzzo [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 8:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
I should have checked before sending the email, sorry, I cannot use event because it is not allowed inside an ab where I have my text.

2017-06-07 7:29 GMT+02:00 Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light





--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)




--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English

University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail:[hidden email]
Development site: http://newtfire.org



--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail:[hidden email]
Development site: http://newtfire.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Øyvind Eide-4
In reply to this post by Daniele
Dear all,

This is an interesting discussion and I agree that what is recoded is an event, even though it is a bit unclear what the dating refers to.

However, it is not in my view appropriate to encode it with the event element, no more than a place name or any other string referring to a place should be encoded with the place element. A string referring to a place (such as a place name) is different from a place. In the same way a string referring to an event is different from the event itself. 

So I would suggest to use <rs type=“event”> or, as suggested by Daniele below, <seg type=“event”>

Then there could be event elements in the header linking all references to each event together. This is then convenient to refer to other sources mentioning the same events. 

Kind regards,

Øyvind

7. jun. 2017 kl. 12.53 skrev Daniele Marotta <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,
I'm agree with Richard and Lou, the attributes on <placeName> refer to the place not to the event. Eduard's solution, it seems to me, manages all cases of event if you customize the element <event> too (for example <placeName> doesn't be contained by <event>), but yours files will be only valid with your customization of the schema. 
if I had to encode your example, I would use <seg> and <date>:

<seg type="event"><date notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year</date> King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></seg>

I'm not sure this solution manages all cases of event: does each span of text, that you encode like event, contain a date in any format?

Daniele

On 07/06/2017 09:04, Eduard Drenth wrote:
Hi,

You may consider creating a customization allowing event inside ab. Though I do not know the considerations to not allow event inside ab.

Something like this in your odd:

                <elementSpec ident="ab" module="linking" mode="change">
                    <desc>allowing event within ab in order to.....</desc>
                    <content>
                        <elementRef key="event"/>
                    </content>
                </elementSpec>


Eduard Drenth, Software Architekt


Doelestrjitte 8
8911 DX  Ljouwert
+31 58 234 30 47




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [hidden email] on behalf of Pietro Liuzzo [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 8:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
I should have checked before sending the email, sorry, I cannot use event because it is not allowed inside an ab where I have my text.

2017-06-07 7:29 GMT+02:00 Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="xml:id=">xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:
Dear Pietro,

Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.

Warm wishes,
Thomas

From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:
Elisa, Pietro,
Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)
Richard
On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

-- 
Richard Light




-- 
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



-- 
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: places, dates

Lou Burnard-6
In reply to this post by Elisa Beshero-Bondar
Semantic disputes are my favourite kind. The issue here however is what it means to use placeName in a particular context. If you use placeName within place, then you are clearly saying something about the various names which a given place might have had at different times. That's why placeName is datable, so that it can be used in that context and for that purpose: everything Elisa says about places being named differently at different times, and about the meaning of a name therefore being different at different times makes perfect sense.  But the trouble with this example is that the placeName is *not* being associated with a dated/datable entity, but being dated itself. I understand why this is an attractive short cut, but I think it's mistaken.

What I expect to find when I follow the link http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar is a full definition for the place, including the different names it may have had at different times. This encoding places some of that information in the wrong place. What if there are 99 other references to "Gondar" in my document? Am I going to have to place this dating information on each one?



On 07/06/17 12:11, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote:
Before we get involved in a semantic dispute about whether the *name* of a place can be said to be qualified temporally, consider:

Paris of 1880 to 1900 is distinct from Paris of 1950-1960. That which we name Paris (marking with placeName) differs semantically when we set a date range on it. In the text that Pietro is marking, it struck me with clarity that Pietro is doing the research work of disambiguation when he sets @notBefore and @notAfter on placeName. 

The following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

Those dates aren't available in the text, and neither is the suggestion of a date range. This is metadata, and I suppose Pietro might mark it with an editorial note, but again, the simplicity of this markup for processing, *and* its conformance with our Guidelines is what I want to emphasize here. I think Pietro's showing us a very clear and helpful explanation of *why* placeName is a member of att.datable in the first place.

Best,
Elisa



On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:58 AM, Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear people,
Our examples of <event> in the Guidelines clearly indicate a specific use of it inside personography or list files: see http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/examples-event.html  , and our specs are pretty clear: The event element is contained *only* by
namesdates: event listEvent org person personGrp place

So it would be appropriate to set the event element inside a place element in a "placeography" list, or inside a list of events, but presumably Pietro isn't encoding event inside a list construction. Pietro, you wouldn't be using event inside a p element either, at least not in a way that's TEI conformant.

Let's take another look at att.datable: There's a big list of members, and it clearly includes placeName as well as persName. It looks to me as if Pietro is doing markup inline of a chronicle. Why, you may ask, would someone put attributes belonging to time on a placeName? Pietro is showing us a reason to do it, and the Guidelines certainly permit it. Rather than force-fitting a customization of the TEI that  doesn't conform to our Guidelines, I think the simpler solution that Pietro originally proposed is really the best one. What does it mean to set notBefore and notAfter on a placeName element? It means, quite simply, the placeName Gondar not before 1540 and not after 1559. It's simple, doesn't involve any customization work, and also doesn't complicate his text encoding with elements that will pose overlap problems. Also, he can explain his encoding decisions to his site visitors and it's clear he can use this encoding very smoothly for processing. Let's rethink the urgency of imposing event here.

Best,
Elisa 

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:53 AM, Daniele Marotta <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Pietro,
I'm agree with Richard and Lou, the attributes on <placeName> refer to the place not to the event. Eduard's solution, it seems to me, manages all cases of event if you customize the element <event> too (for example <placeName> doesn't be contained by <event>), but yours files will be only valid with your customization of the schema.
if I had to encode your example, I would use <seg> and <date>:


<seg type="event"><date notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year</date> King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></seg>


I'm not sure this solution manages all cases of event: does each span of text, that you encode like event, contain a date in any format?


Daniele


On 07/06/2017 09:04, Eduard Drenth wrote:
Hi,


You may consider creating a customization allowing event inside ab. Though I do not know the considerations to not allow event inside ab.


Something like this in your odd:

                <elementSpec ident="ab" module="linking" mode="change">
                    <desc>allowing event within ab in order to.....</desc>
                    <content>
                        <elementRef key="event"/>
                    </content>
                </elementSpec>


Eduard Drenth, Software Architekt


[hidden email]


Doelestrjitte 8

8911 DX  Ljouwert

+31 58 234 30 47


gpg: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x065EF82A1E02CC43




From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [hidden email] on behalf of Pietro Liuzzo [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 8:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
I should have checked before sending the email, sorry, I cannot use event because it is not allowed inside an ab where I have my text.

2017-06-07 7:29 GMT+02:00 Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

thanks a lot to all!

it looks like the best solution for the first case would be something like

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event>

although this for us will be in a text record, not in a gazetteer record about a place. What should I do then if the text went slightly further to say

<event 
notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName></event> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.

these would be two distinct events, right? It would sound unsatisfactory to simply do

<event notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" >Gondar</placeName> and to <placeName>Addis</placeName>.</event>

I still think using @notBefore and @notAfter in placeName would be a competitive alternative encoding candidate and a bit more flexible for our purposes. Would it make it more comprehensible for example to add to that placeName a @type="datedAttestation" with a value whose definition in our schema  specifies the usage we are making in the text precisely, i.e. to date the toponym attestation relative to the work content? 

For the second case, what I know is that that creation statement applies especially to the title which has xml:id="title1" not to the other titles. It might be all we know about the literary work we are encoding but we do not want to extend the scope of an assertion if we can specify to what it belongs. linking with @corresp seemed very intuitive for the encoder but I am very happy to collect other suggestions. It sounds to me this would be the better way to go at the moment:

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<origPlace ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE"/>
.
</creation> 
The contraindication might be due to the fact that we have sometimes multiple creation elements, I will try to encode those with listChange instead and see how far I get. 

Agreed also that the empty placeName element is fragile, this is one of the differences between what we enter and what we offer for consumers. We try to speed up as much as possible the data entry (so much to do!), but the xml file we will offer for reuse can be either looking like these or a transformed version which has all empty elements where this is possible expanded with content.

thank you very much again!
Sincerely yours

Pietro

2017-06-06 19:25 GMT+02:00 Carlson, Thomas Andrew <[hidden email]>:

Dear Pietro,


Would it be permissible and make sense in your coding context to wrap the entire sentence "the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. " in an <event> element (or perhaps rather in <desc>, <p>, or <ab> within an <event>)?  Then the @notBefore and @notAfter could be put in the <event> element rather than the <placeName>.  This is what the Syriac Gazetteer does, e.g. at https://github.com/srophe/srophe-app-data/blob/master/data/places/tei/78.xml#L170-L232 .  But <event> is only useful in a narrow range of coding contexts, so it may not be a solution in your case.


Warm wishes,

Thomas


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:23:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: places, dates
 
Hello Richard

I agree with you that applying @notBefore and @notAfter here is probably not what was intended. It would make sense if the <placeName> was one of many within a <place> element, for example to show that the place identified as http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar  was known as "Gondar" at one time and as "Goondarre" at another. But that's information about a PLACE not information about a PLACENAME.

On 06/06/17 15:52, Richard Light wrote:

Elisa, Pietro,

Does that encoding actually capture the essence of the attestation?  The notBefore and notAfter attributes are for a 'datable event'.  To my mind, putting them on <placeName> implies that it is the place itself which existed/had that name between the dates specified.  There are two other events: King Claudius visiting Gondar, and the recording of this event in the chronicle, which might be more appropriate recipients of the notBefore and notAfter dates.  Neither of these events is explicitly marked up at present.  (One could be simply <event>; the other possibly <creation>?)

Richard

On 2017-06-06 3:26 PM, Elisa wrote:
Dear Pietro,
The use of date attributes with placeName looks good to me: you want to do this markup inside your text to indicate Gondar within a specific date range.

For the creation element (in the profileDesc in the TEI header), I wouldn't include the #Phayqestifanos in the corresp attribute, since you have another means of referencing it later in the entry--it seems redundant here. 

Hope that helps!
Elisa

--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD 
Director, Center for the Digital Text
Associate Professor of English 
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg
150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA
E-mail: [hidden email] | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Pietro Liuzzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

I am looking for some advise on encoding strategies for places attestations.

We want to relate some places and dates informations in our TEI files. For example encoding the chronicle of a king, we would like to relate the place mentioned in the text with a date relative to the chronicle. 

e.g. 

the following year King Claudius went to Gondar. 

We would like to say something like 

the following year King Claudius went to <placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/LOC3577Gondar" notBefore="1540" notAfter="1559">Gondar</placeName>

where the @notBefore and @notAfter are relative to that attestation in the chornicle only. Does this make sense?

We would then like also to relate some dates to specific titles of an encoded literary work and to specific places. We currently attempt to encode this  like 

<creation notBefore="1563" notAfter="1581" corresp="#title1 #Phayqestifanos">
The first revision of the Sǝnkǝssār was carried out between
<date>1563</date>
and
<date>1581</date>
, probably at
<placeName ref="http://betamasaheft.aai.uni-hamburg/places/INS0327DHE" xml:id="Phayqestifanos"/>
.
</creation> 

but we then need to organize very tidily the xml:ids otherways the corresp pointing to the title is for me not programmatically recognizable from that pointing to the place.

any suggestions, examples, hints are extremely welcome!

Thanks a lot
Pietro

--
Richard Light





--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)



--
Pietro Maria Liuzzo
cel (DE): +49 (0) 176 61 000 606
Skype: pietro.liuzzo (Quingentole)




--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English

University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail:[hidden email]
Development site: http://newtfire.org



--
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail:[hidden email]
Development site: http://newtfire.org


12
Loading...