using msDesc for rare books

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using msDesc for rare books

Lou Burnard-6

Every now and then we hear tell of people using the TEI <msDesc> element to represent bibliographic information about things that are not strictly speaking manuscripts at all. I'm looking at a project which wants to encode very detailed information about specific copies of printed books (page layout, binding, ownership etc.) and I am wondering if there's a consensus out there about how to tweak <msDesc> for the purpose. Specifically, today I am wondering how people go about recording detailed notes about the printing of books, that is notes that say things like

"226 copies printed; 5 copies in-quarto, raisin on imperial Japan, with 2 original engravings, numbered from I to V, plus an author's copy ex-series numbered 0; 20 copies in-quarto, raisin[1] on Hollande Van Helder, with 2 original engravings, numbered from VI to XXV; 200 copies in-octavo Jesus[1] on laid Alfa numbered from 1 to 200"

[This is my translation of the original, which reads "5 ex. in-quarto raisin sur Japon impérial avec deux gravures originales de Henri Laurens, numérotés de I à V ainsi qu'un ex. d'auteur hors série numéroté 0 ; 20 ex. in-quarto raisin sur Hollande Van Gelder avec deux gravures originales de Henri Laurens, numérotés de VI à XXV ; 200 ex. in-octavo Jésus sur Alfa vergé numérotés de 1 à 200"]

I guess I could just wrap the whole thing in a <note type="copies"> but that seems a bit dull and doesn't capture the structure. Moreover, this is summary information about three (or possibly four) *groups* of copies, so it's not copy-specific in quite the same way as the physDesc of a msDesc would be.  Did someone say "frbr"?

[1] this is the name of the paper size, if you're wondering. Or so I learn from the internet "In olden times, a pattern or a letter drawn from the daily life of the paper makers and imprinted in the paper used to give it its name. People used to buy raisin paper (50 x 65cm) as it bore the imprint of a bunch of grapes, coquille paper (44 x 56cm), Jesus paper (56 x 76cm) with the imprint of Jesus' monogram – JHS –grand aigle paper (75 x 110cm), etc."


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Re: using msDesc for rare books

yaeln
Hi Lou,
This is an old email but I was wondering if this discussion continued?
Do you have any conclusions as to this 'tweaking' of msDesc to describe non-manuscript bibliographic information?



Thanks
Yael

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:

Every now and then we hear tell of people using the TEI <msDesc> element to represent bibliographic information about things that are not strictly speaking manuscripts at all. I'm looking at a project which wants to encode very detailed information about specific copies of printed books (page layout, binding, ownership etc.) and I am wondering if there's a consensus out there about how to tweak <msDesc> for the purpose. Specifically, today I am wondering how people go about recording detailed notes about the printing of books, that is notes that say things like

"226 copies printed; 5 copies in-quarto, raisin on imperial Japan, with 2 original engravings, numbered from I to V, plus an author's copy ex-series numbered 0; 20 copies in-quarto, raisin[1] on Hollande Van Helder, with 2 original engravings, numbered from VI to XXV; 200 copies in-octavo Jesus[1] on laid Alfa numbered from 1 to 200"

[This is my translation of the original, which reads "5 ex. in-quarto raisin sur Japon impérial avec deux gravures originales de Henri Laurens, numérotés de I à V ainsi qu'un ex. d'auteur hors série numéroté 0 ; 20 ex. in-quarto raisin sur Hollande Van Gelder avec deux gravures originales de Henri Laurens, numérotés de VI à XXV ; 200 ex. in-octavo Jésus sur Alfa vergé numérotés de 1 à 200"]

I guess I could just wrap the whole thing in a <note type="copies"> but that seems a bit dull and doesn't capture the structure. Moreover, this is summary information about three (or possibly four) *groups* of copies, so it's not copy-specific in quite the same way as the physDesc of a msDesc would be.  Did someone say "frbr"?

[1] this is the name of the paper size, if you're wondering. Or so I learn from the internet "In olden times, a pattern or a letter drawn from the daily life of the paper makers and imprinted in the paper used to give it its name. People used to buy raisin paper (50 x 65cm) as it bore the imprint of a bunch of grapes, coquille paper (44 x 56cm), Jesus paper (56 x 76cm) with the imprint of Jesus' monogram – JHS –grand aigle paper (75 x 110cm), etc."



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Re: using msDesc for rare books

Lou Burnard-6

Sadly, no, this discussion didn't so much fizzle out, as never even get started.

I'm still interested, if anyone has any suggestions about how best to handle this kind of information...


On 17/10/17 10:10, Yael Netzer wrote:
Hi Lou,
This is an old email but I was wondering if this discussion continued?
Do you have any conclusions as to this 'tweaking' of msDesc to describe
non-manuscript bibliographic information?



Thanks
Yael

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Lou Burnard [hidden email]
wrote:

Every now and then we hear tell of people using the TEI <msDesc> element
to represent bibliographic information about things that are not strictly
speaking manuscripts at all. I'm looking at a project which wants to encode
very detailed information about specific copies of printed books (page
layout, binding, ownership etc.) and I am wondering if there's a consensus
out there about how to tweak <msDesc> for the purpose. Specifically, today
I am wondering how people go about recording detailed notes about the
printing of books, that is notes that say things like

"226 copies printed; 5 copies in-quarto, raisin on imperial Japan, with 2
original engravings, numbered from I to V, plus an author's copy ex-series
numbered 0; 20 copies in-quarto, raisin[1] on Hollande Van Helder, with 2
original engravings, numbered from VI to XXV; 200 copies in-octavo Jesus[1]
on laid Alfa numbered from 1 to 200"
[This is my translation of the original, which reads "5 ex. in-quarto
raisin sur Japon impérial avec deux gravures originales de Henri Laurens,
numérotés de I à V ainsi qu'un ex. d'auteur hors série numéroté 0 ; 20 ex.
in-quarto raisin sur Hollande Van Gelder avec deux gravures originales de
Henri Laurens, numérotés de VI à XXV ; 200 ex. in-octavo Jésus sur Alfa
vergé numérotés de 1 à 200"]

I guess I could just wrap the whole thing in a <note type="copies"> but
that seems a bit dull and doesn't capture the structure. Moreover, this is
summary information about three (or possibly four) *groups* of copies, so
it's not copy-specific in quite the same way as the physDesc of a msDesc
would be.  Did someone say "frbr"?

[1] this is the name of the paper size, if you're wondering. Or so I learn
from the internet "In olden times, a pattern or a letter drawn from the
daily life of the paper makers and imprinted in the paper used to give it
its name. People used to buy raisin paper (50 x 65cm) as it bore the
imprint of a bunch of grapes, coquille paper (44 x 56cm), Jesus paper (56 x
76cm) with the imprint of Jesus' monogram – JHS –grand aigle paper (75 x
110cm), etc."




    

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Re: using msDesc for rare books

Christian-Emil Ore-4

Hi


Maybe we should review <msDesc>. Since texts are found on all kinds of objects. Even though the guidelines states:

 

"<msDesc> (manuscript description) contains a description of a single identifiable manuscript or other text-bearing object."

 

and

 

"<objectDesc> contains a description of the physical components making up the object which is being described."

 

and 


"<physDesc> (physical description) contains a full physical description of a manuscript or manuscript part,
optionally subdivided using more specialized elements from the model.physDescPart class"

 

There is a slight inconsistency here. In any case, it may be better if the physical description were defined independently of <msDesc>.  Then it can be used for all kind of physical object without being inside <msDesc>

 

Best,

Christian-Emil​


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Lou Burnard <[hidden email]>
Sent: 18 October 2017 13:55
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: using msDesc for rare books
 

Sadly, no, this discussion didn't so much fizzle out, as never even get started.

I'm still interested, if anyone has any suggestions about how best to handle this kind of information...


On 17/10/17 10:10, Yael Netzer wrote:
Hi Lou,
This is an old email but I was wondering if this discussion continued?
Do you have any conclusions as to this 'tweaking' of msDesc to describe
non-manuscript bibliographic information?



Thanks
Yael

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Lou Burnard [hidden email]
wrote:

Every now and then we hear tell of people using the TEI <msDesc> element
to represent bibliographic information about things that are not strictly
speaking manuscripts at all. I'm looking at a project which wants to encode
very detailed information about specific copies of printed books (page
layout, binding, ownership etc.) and I am wondering if there's a consensus
out there about how to tweak <msDesc> for the purpose. Specifically, today
I am wondering how people go about recording detailed notes about the
printing of books, that is notes that say things like

"226 copies printed; 5 copies in-quarto, raisin on imperial Japan, with 2
original engravings, numbered from I to V, plus an author's copy ex-series
numbered 0; 20 copies in-quarto, raisin[1] on Hollande Van Helder, with 2
original engravings, numbered from VI to XXV; 200 copies in-octavo Jesus[1]
on laid Alfa numbered from 1 to 200"
[This is my translation of the original, which reads "5 ex. in-quarto
raisin sur Japon impérial avec deux gravures originales de Henri Laurens,
numérotés de I à V ainsi qu'un ex. d'auteur hors série numéroté 0 ; 20 ex.
in-quarto raisin sur Hollande Van Gelder avec deux gravures originales de
Henri Laurens, numérotés de VI à XXV ; 200 ex. in-octavo Jésus sur Alfa
vergé numérotés de 1 à 200"]

I guess I could just wrap the whole thing in a <note type="copies"> but
that seems a bit dull and doesn't capture the structure. Moreover, this is
summary information about three (or possibly four) *groups* of copies, so
it's not copy-specific in quite the same way as the physDesc of a msDesc
would be.  Did someone say "frbr"?

[1] this is the name of the paper size, if you're wondering. Or so I learn
from the internet "In olden times, a pattern or a letter drawn from the
daily life of the paper makers and imprinted in the paper used to give it
its name. People used to buy raisin paper (50 x 65cm) as it bore the
imprint of a bunch of grapes, coquille paper (44 x 56cm), Jesus paper (56 x
76cm) with the imprint of Jesus' monogram – JHS –grand aigle paper (75 x
110cm), etc."





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Re: using msDesc for rare books

Lou Burnard-6

Well, the description of physDesc clearly needs to be modified "... description of manuscript or manuscript part" -> "description of all or part of a manuscript or other text bearing object" for example

Whether physDesc should be allowed independently of msDesc I am not so sure


On 03/11/17 15:09, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote:
Hi


Maybe we should review <msDesc>. Since texts are found on all kinds of objects. Even though the guidelines states:



"<msDesc> (manuscript description) contains a description of a single identifiable manuscript or other text-bearing object."



and



"<objectDesc> contains a description of the physical components making up the object which is being described."



and

"<physDesc> (physical description) contains a full physical description of a manuscript or manuscript part,
optionally subdivided using more specialized elements from the model.physDescPart class"



There is a slight inconsistency here. In any case, it may be better if the physical description were defined independently of <msDesc>.  Then it can be used for all kind of physical object without being inside <msDesc>



Best,

Christian-Emil?

________________________________
From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list [hidden email] on behalf of Lou Burnard [hidden email]
Sent: 18 October 2017 13:55
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: using msDesc for rare books


Sadly, no, this discussion didn't so much fizzle out, as never even get started.

I'm still interested, if anyone has any suggestions about how best to handle this kind of information...

On 17/10/17 10:10, Yael Netzer wrote:

Hi Lou,
This is an old email but I was wondering if this discussion continued?
Do you have any conclusions as to this 'tweaking' of msDesc to describe
non-manuscript bibliographic information?



Thanks
Yael

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Lou Burnard [hidden email][hidden email]
wrote:



Every now and then we hear tell of people using the TEI <msDesc> element
to represent bibliographic information about things that are not strictly
speaking manuscripts at all. I'm looking at a project which wants to encode
very detailed information about specific copies of printed books (page
layout, binding, ownership etc.) and I am wondering if there's a consensus
out there about how to tweak <msDesc> for the purpose. Specifically, today
I am wondering how people go about recording detailed notes about the
printing of books, that is notes that say things like

"226 copies printed; 5 copies in-quarto, raisin on imperial Japan, with 2
original engravings, numbered from I to V, plus an author's copy ex-series
numbered 0; 20 copies in-quarto, raisin[1] on Hollande Van Helder, with 2
original engravings, numbered from VI to XXV; 200 copies in-octavo Jesus[1]
on laid Alfa numbered from 1 to 200"
[This is my translation of the original, which reads "5 ex. in-quarto
raisin sur Japon impérial avec deux gravures originales de Henri Laurens,
numérotés de I à V ainsi qu'un ex. d'auteur hors série numéroté 0 ; 20 ex.
in-quarto raisin sur Hollande Van Gelder avec deux gravures originales de
Henri Laurens, numérotés de VI à XXV ; 200 ex. in-octavo Jésus sur Alfa
vergé numérotés de 1 à 200"]

I guess I could just wrap the whole thing in a <note type="copies"> but
that seems a bit dull and doesn't capture the structure. Moreover, this is
summary information about three (or possibly four) *groups* of copies, so
it's not copy-specific in quite the same way as the physDesc of a msDesc
would be.  Did someone say "frbr"?

[1] this is the name of the paper size, if you're wondering. Or so I learn
from the internet "In olden times, a pattern or a letter drawn from the
daily life of the paper makers and imprinted in the paper used to give it
its name. People used to buy raisin paper (50 x 65cm) as it bore the
imprint of a bunch of grapes, coquille paper (44 x 56cm), Jesus paper (56 x
76cm) with the imprint of Jesus' monogram - JHS -grand aigle paper (75 x
110cm), etc."