@when attribute

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
20 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

@when attribute

Marjorie Burghart-2
Dear list,

I'm a bit confused by the examples in http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.datable.w3c.html
My issue is especially with incomplete dates. I don't get why there seems to be a leading hyphen here:
<date when="--06-12">June 12th</date>
<date when="---01">the first of the month</date>
<date when="--08">August</date>

I have checked the dateTime format in W3C's XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes Second Edition, but found nothing that would explain this leading hyphen when the year is missing.

Best,
Marjorie
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Martin Holmes
Hi Marjorie,

I see this in the W3 spec:

The lexical representation for gMonthDay is the left truncated lexical
representation for date: --MM-DD
<https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gMonthDay>

The lexical representation for gDay is the left truncated lexical
representation for date: ---DD
<https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gDay>

The lexical representation for gMonth is the left and right truncated
lexical representation for date: --MM
<https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gMonth>

Cheers,
Martin

On 2018-02-19 03:01 PM, Marjorie Burghart wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> I'm a bit confused by the examples in http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.datable.w3c.html
> My issue is especially with incomplete dates. I don't get why there seems to be a leading hyphen here:
> <date when="--06-12">June 12th</date>
> <date when="---01">the first of the month</date>
> <date when="--08">August</date>
>
> I have checked the dateTime format in W3C's XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes Second Edition, but found nothing that would explain this leading hyphen when the year is missing.
>
> Best,
> Marjorie
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Marjorie Burghart-2
Hi Martin:

OK, but I still don't get why "the left truncated lexical representation for date" would be "--MM-DD", and not just "-MM-DD"?

Cheers, Marjorie


----- Mail original -----
De: "Martin Holmes" <[hidden email]>
À: "Marjorie Burghart" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 00:49:53
Objet: Re: @when attribute

Hi Marjorie,

I see this in the W3 spec:

The lexical representation for gMonthDay is the left truncated lexical
representation for date: --MM-DD
<https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gMonthDay>

The lexical representation for gDay is the left truncated lexical
representation for date: ---DD
<https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gDay>

The lexical representation for gMonth is the left and right truncated
lexical representation for date: --MM
<https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gMonth>

Cheers,
Martin

On 2018-02-19 03:01 PM, Marjorie Burghart wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> I'm a bit confused by the examples in http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.datable.w3c.html
> My issue is especially with incomplete dates. I don't get why there seems to be a leading hyphen here:
> <date when="--06-12">June 12th</date>
> <date when="---01">the first of the month</date>
> <date when="--08">August</date>
>
> I have checked the dateTime format in W3C's XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes Second Edition, but found nothing that would explain this leading hyphen when the year is missing.
>
> Best,
> Marjorie
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Martin Holmes
Hi Marjorie,

I don't know what the rationale was, but maybe we could find out from a
trawl through the W3C mailing lists. I think ISO used to allow truncated
dates, but doesn't any more.

Cheers,
Martin

On 2018-02-19 03:58 PM, Marjorie Burghart wrote:

> Hi Martin:
>
> OK, but I still don't get why "the left truncated lexical representation for date" would be "--MM-DD", and not just "-MM-DD"?
>
> Cheers, Marjorie
>
>
> ----- Mail original -----
> De: "Martin Holmes" <[hidden email]>
> À: "Marjorie Burghart" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
> Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 00:49:53
> Objet: Re: @when attribute
>
> Hi Marjorie,
>
> I see this in the W3 spec:
>
> The lexical representation for gMonthDay is the left truncated lexical
> representation for date: --MM-DD
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gMonthDay>
>
> The lexical representation for gDay is the left truncated lexical
> representation for date: ---DD
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gDay>
>
> The lexical representation for gMonth is the left and right truncated
> lexical representation for date: --MM
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#gMonth>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> On 2018-02-19 03:01 PM, Marjorie Burghart wrote:
>> Dear list,
>>
>> I'm a bit confused by the examples in http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.datable.w3c.html
>> My issue is especially with incomplete dates. I don't get why there seems to be a leading hyphen here:
>> <date when="--06-12">June 12th</date>
>> <date when="---01">the first of the month</date>
>> <date when="--08">August</date>
>>
>> I have checked the dateTime format in W3C's XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes Second Edition, but found nothing that would explain this leading hyphen when the year is missing.
>>
>> Best,
>> Marjorie
>>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Syd Bauman-10
I am pretty sure Martin is essentially right, here. ISO 8601:2000
used the "--MM-DD" format (5.2.1.3 (d), (e), & (f)). ISO 8601:2004
does not mention it.

I think the syntax is that way because in 8601:2000 it was (unwisely
IMHO) permitted to use a 2-digit year. Thus -04-05 meant May of the
4th year of "the implied century".

But in any case, in W3C the "--MM-DD" format is used. But keep in
mind it does *not* mean "this day of that month in some year, I'm not
sure which", it means "this day of that month in every year". That
is, it is the "set of one-day long, annually periodic instances".

If you want the "I'm not sure of the year" notation, you're in a
bind. That is in large part why TEI invented @when-iso, but we had
not gotten an actual copy of 8601:2004 when we did that, and did not
realize ISO no longer supports that. Thus you may end up stuck using
@when-custom, in which case I would recommend using the LOC EDTF.[1]
(I was, BTW, an advocate of adding @when-loc and friends to the TEI
for EDTF representations. I piped down when there was talk of getting
EDTF into ISO. I do not know how far that has gotten. See the notes
at the bottom of [2], which I just learned now, too. I do not know if
ISO asked that those links be taken down because they are not going
through with EDTF-in-8601, or because the ISO likes to sell its
standards and does not want people getting the DIS for free.)


Note
----
[1] https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/pre-submission.html
[2] https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/index.html

> I don't know what the rationale was, but maybe we could find out
> from a trawl through the W3C mailing lists. I think ISO used to
> allow truncated dates, but doesn't any more.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Marjorie Burghart-2
Oh, I don't doubt Martin is right :) I'm just trying to understand this bizarre syntax. The context you gave is very useful, thanks!
Cheers, Marjorie

----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 01:58:57
Objet: Re: @when attribute

I am pretty sure Martin is essentially right, here. ISO 8601:2000
used the "--MM-DD" format (5.2.1.3 (d), (e), & (f)). ISO 8601:2004
does not mention it.

I think the syntax is that way because in 8601:2000 it was (unwisely
IMHO) permitted to use a 2-digit year. Thus -04-05 meant May of the
4th year of "the implied century".

But in any case, in W3C the "--MM-DD" format is used. But keep in
mind it does *not* mean "this day of that month in some year, I'm not
sure which", it means "this day of that month in every year". That
is, it is the "set of one-day long, annually periodic instances".

If you want the "I'm not sure of the year" notation, you're in a
bind. That is in large part why TEI invented @when-iso, but we had
not gotten an actual copy of 8601:2004 when we did that, and did not
realize ISO no longer supports that. Thus you may end up stuck using
@when-custom, in which case I would recommend using the LOC EDTF.[1]
(I was, BTW, an advocate of adding @when-loc and friends to the TEI
for EDTF representations. I piped down when there was talk of getting
EDTF into ISO. I do not know how far that has gotten. See the notes
at the bottom of [2], which I just learned now, too. I do not know if
ISO asked that those links be taken down because they are not going
through with EDTF-in-8601, or because the ISO likes to sell its
standards and does not want people getting the DIS for free.)


Note
----
[1] https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/pre-submission.html
[2] https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/index.html

> I don't know what the rationale was, but maybe we could find out
> from a trawl through the W3C mailing lists. I think ISO used to
> allow truncated dates, but doesn't any more.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

C. M. Sperberg-McQueen
In reply to this post by Marjorie Burghart-2
> On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:01 PM, Marjorie Burghart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear list,
>
> I'm a bit confused by the examples in http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.datable.w3c.html
> My issue is especially with incomplete dates. I don't get why there seems to be a leading hyphen here:
> <date when="--06-12">June 12th</date>
> <date when="---01">the first of the month</date>
> <date when="--08">August</date>
>
> I have checked the dateTime format in W3C's XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes Second Edition, but found nothing that would explain this leading hyphen when the year is missing.

The leading hyphen is used by ISO 8601 to ensure that
all forms of full and partial dates can be readily distinguished
from each other.  

The section of XSD Part 2 you want is that for Gregorian
month-day information (3.3.12 gMonthDay)[1], in particular
section 3.3.12.2 Lexical Mapping.  (The type dateTime is
used only for full time stamps; partial dates and the like
use separate types in XSD:  date, time, gYearMonth, gYear,
gMonthDay, gDay, gMonth.)

The XSD spec (or a tutorial) ought to make it easier to
understand the sometimes complicated rules for date and
time formats, and in particular probably ought to have a
section with side-by-side examples of all the date/time types
so it’s easier to see how they are related.  But the focus in
work on datatypes during the preparation of XSD 1.1 was
on making the rules more explicit and formal.    (And in
retrospect it seems fair to say that the XSD WG was not
really full of people good at making things easy to understand.)

[1] https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#gMonthDay

I hope this helps.

Michael Sperberg-McQueen

********************************************
C. M. Sperberg-McQueen
Black Mesa Technologies LLC
[hidden email]
http://www.blackmesatech.com
********************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

James Cummings-5
In reply to this post by Marjorie Burghart-2

Hi Marjorie,


If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20 when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it. 


Best wishes,

James 


--

Dr James Cummings, [hidden email]

School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marjorie Burghart <[hidden email]>
Sent: 20 February 2018 01:27:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: @when attribute
 
Oh, I don't doubt Martin is right :) I'm just trying to understand this bizarre syntax. The context you gave is very useful, thanks!
Cheers, Marjorie

----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 01:58:57
Objet: Re: @when attribute

I am pretty sure Martin is essentially right, here. ISO 8601:2000
used the "--MM-DD" format (5.2.1.3 (d), (e), & (f)). ISO 8601:2004
does not mention it.

I think the syntax is that way because in 8601:2000 it was (unwisely
IMHO) permitted to use a 2-digit year. Thus -04-05 meant May of the
4th year of "the implied century".

But in any case, in W3C the "--MM-DD" format is used. But keep in
mind it does *not* mean "this day of that month in some year, I'm not
sure which", it means "this day of that month in every year". That
is, it is the "set of one-day long, annually periodic instances".

If you want the "I'm not sure of the year" notation, you're in a
bind. That is in large part why TEI invented @when-iso, but we had
not gotten an actual copy of 8601:2004 when we did that, and did not
realize ISO no longer supports that. Thus you may end up stuck using
@when-custom, in which case I would recommend using the LOC EDTF.[1]
(I was, BTW, an advocate of adding @when-loc and friends to the TEI
for EDTF representations. I piped down when there was talk of getting
EDTF into ISO. I do not know how far that has gotten. See the notes
at the bottom of [2], which I just learned now, too. I do not know if
ISO asked that those links be taken down because they are not going
through with EDTF-in-8601, or because the ISO likes to sell its
standards and does not want people getting the DIS for free.)


Note
----
[1] https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/pre-submission.html
[2] https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/index.html

> I don't know what the rationale was, but maybe we could find out
> from a trawl through the W3C mailing lists. I think ISO used to
> allow truncated dates, but doesn't any more.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Syd Bauman-10
That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Marjorie Burghart-2
I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Lou Burnard-6
@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Marjorie Burghart-2
Nope, good Sir. @notBefore and @notAfter are no help if you have something like that, in a will:

"... signed in front of witnesses on July 2nd, <damage extent="2 to 4 words"/>..."



----- Mail original -----
De: "Lou Burnard" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:54:09
Objet: Re: @when attribute

@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Hugh Cayless-2
In reply to this post by Lou Burnard-6
Given the chaos that surrounds the W3C dating scheme (see https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344), perhaps we should look more seriously at a TEI-defined one.

Having documents where you know the day and month, but not the year, or know the year and day, but not the month is pretty common in my world. It would be quite useful to be able to express that information formally.

Hugh

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Martin Holmes
On 2018-02-20 12:02 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote:
> Given the chaos that surrounds the W3C dating scheme (see
> https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344), perhaps we should look more
> seriously at a TEI-defined one.
>
> Having documents where you know the day and month, but not the year, or
> know the year and day, but not the month is pretty common in my world.
> It would be quite useful to be able to express that information formally.

It's also quite common to know the date but not the exact calendar being
used; you might know it's January 23 1543 in a Julian system, but not
know whether the start-of-year is January 1 or March 25, for instance.

the @*-custom dating attributes handle this pretty well, but there may
be a subset of scenarios for Gregorian dates which are general enough to
be worth turning into yet another set of dating attributes.

Cheers,
Martin

>
> Hugh
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Lou Burnard
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     @notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?
>
>     Sent from my Huawei Mobile
>
>
>     -------- Original Message --------
>     Subject: Re: @when attribute
>     From: Marjorie Burghart
>     To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     CC:
>
>     I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing,
>     there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
>     Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you
>     would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.
>
>     It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I
>     thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's
>     a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.
>
>     Best wishes,
>     Marjorie
>
>
>
>     ----- Mail original -----
>     De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     À: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
>     Objet: Re: @when attribute
>
>     That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
>     not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)
>
>     > If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
>     > two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
>     > when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
>     > hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
>     > right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.
>
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

richard light
In reply to this post by Hugh Cayless-2

On 20/02/2018 20:02, Hugh Cayless wrote:
Given the chaos that surrounds the W3C dating scheme (see https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344), perhaps we should look more seriously at a TEI-defined one.

Having documents where you know the day and month, but not the year, or know the year and day, but not the month is pretty common in my world. It would be quite useful to be able to express that information formally.
I think such a development would be of genuine value to a lot of audiences in the humanities.  Imprecision of individual dates, partial dates, and date ranges of uncertain duration, are very common in a museum cataloguing context, and I would guess in archives too.  Also in parish register transcription projects, i.e. genealogy.

Best wishes,

Richard


Hugh

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.


--
Richard Light
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Jose Blanco Perales
Dear all,

I recommend that you have a look at the development of the Extended Date/Time Format extension of ISO 8601: 

Their solutions for uncertain and approximated dates is quite interesting. I think if fits really well the need of humanities projects. The  ISO committee has changed the syntax a little, especially the elements closely related to the English language (e.g. 'X' instead of 'u' for 'uncertain'). They are planning to incorporate the new extension in the forthcoming  ISO/DIS 8601-2 standard.
You can find more examples in the following blog entry:

Best wishes,

José Blanco

Virus-free. www.avast.com

2018-02-21 11:56 GMT+01:00 Richard Light <[hidden email]>:

On 20/02/2018 20:02, Hugh Cayless wrote:
Given the chaos that surrounds the W3C dating scheme (see https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344), perhaps we should look more seriously at a TEI-defined one.

Having documents where you know the day and month, but not the year, or know the year and day, but not the month is pretty common in my world. It would be quite useful to be able to express that information formally.
I think such a development would be of genuine value to a lot of audiences in the humanities.  Imprecision of individual dates, partial dates, and date ranges of uncertain duration, are very common in a museum cataloguing context, and I would guess in archives too.  Also in parish register transcription projects, i.e. genealogy.

Best wishes,

Richard



Hugh

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.


--
Richard Light

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

richard light

José,

Interesting, but what's the history of this?  I see a 2012 paper with an amendment last updated last month, and a note that it is superseded.  Has the official version disappeared into the dark maw of the ISO publication process, never to be seen (for free) again? :-)

Thanks,

Richard

On 21/02/2018 12:10, Jose Blanco Perales wrote:
Dear all,

I recommend that you have a look at the development of the Extended Date/Time Format extension of ISO 8601: 

Their solutions for uncertain and approximated dates is quite interesting. I think if fits really well the need of humanities projects. The  ISO committee has changed the syntax a little, especially the elements closely related to the English language (e.g. 'X' instead of 'u' for 'uncertain'). They are planning to incorporate the new extension in the forthcoming  ISO/DIS 8601-2 standard.
You can find more examples in the following blog entry:

Best wishes,

José Blanco

Virus-free. www.avast.com

2018-02-21 11:56 GMT+01:00 Richard Light <[hidden email]>:

On 20/02/2018 20:02, Hugh Cayless wrote:
Given the chaos that surrounds the W3C dating scheme (see https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344), perhaps we should look more seriously at a TEI-defined one.

Having documents where you know the day and month, but not the year, or know the year and day, but not the month is pretty common in my world. It would be quite useful to be able to express that information formally.
I think such a development would be of genuine value to a lot of audiences in the humanities.  Imprecision of individual dates, partial dates, and date ranges of uncertain duration, are very common in a museum cataloguing context, and I would guess in archives too.  Also in parish register transcription projects, i.e. genealogy.

Best wishes,

Richard



Hugh

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.


--
Richard Light


--
Richard Light
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Lou Burnard-6
https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/index.html suggests that we may eventually have our cake and eat it too ... (" EDTF functionality has been integrated into a draft revision of ISO 8601 to be published in 2017 or 2018.")  at which time, presumably, @iso-when will Do The Right Thing and we won't have to have a *fourth* attribute class for normalisation of temporal attributes (phew)

On 21/02/18 13:01, Richard Light wrote:

José,

Interesting, but what's the history of this?  I see a 2012 paper with an amendment last updated last month, and a note that it is superseded.  Has the official version disappeared into the dark maw of the ISO publication process, never to be seen (for free) again? :-)

Thanks,

Richard

On 21/02/2018 12:10, Jose Blanco Perales wrote:
Dear all,

I recommend that you have a look at the development of the Extended Date/Time Format extension of ISO 8601: 

Their solutions for uncertain and approximated dates is quite interesting. I think if fits really well the need of humanities projects. The  ISO committee has changed the syntax a little, especially the elements closely related to the English language (e.g. 'X' instead of 'u' for 'uncertain'). They are planning to incorporate the new extension in the forthcoming  ISO/DIS 8601-2 standard.
You can find more examples in the following blog entry:

Best wishes,

José Blanco

Virus-free. www.avast.com

2018-02-21 11:56 GMT+01:00 Richard Light <[hidden email]>:

On 20/02/2018 20:02, Hugh Cayless wrote:
Given the chaos that surrounds the W3C dating scheme (see https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344), perhaps we should look more seriously at a TEI-defined one.

Having documents where you know the day and month, but not the year, or know the year and day, but not the month is pretty common in my world. It would be quite useful to be able to express that information formally.
I think such a development would be of genuine value to a lot of audiences in the humanities.  Imprecision of individual dates, partial dates, and date ranges of uncertain duration, are very common in a museum cataloguing context, and I would guess in archives too.  Also in parish register transcription projects, i.e. genealogy.

Best wishes,

Richard



Hugh

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.


--
Richard Light


--
Richard Light


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

Hugh Cayless-2
I we did it, I'd probably argue for folding it into *-custom rather than producing yet another set of attributes. But yay! Maybe we won't have to.

To be honest, I'm in favor of trying to prune those attribute sets. I'm not sure why we don't just have a mechanism for specifying which scheme you're using in your ODD/teiHeader and then just use @when, etc....

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/index.html suggests that we may eventually have our cake and eat it too ... (" EDTF functionality has been integrated into a draft revision of ISO 8601 to be published in 2017 or 2018.")  at which time, presumably, @iso-when will Do The Right Thing and we won't have to have a *fourth* attribute class for normalisation of temporal attributes (phew)


On 21/02/18 13:01, Richard Light wrote:

José,

Interesting, but what's the history of this?  I see a 2012 paper with an amendment last updated last month, and a note that it is superseded.  Has the official version disappeared into the dark maw of the ISO publication process, never to be seen (for free) again? :-)

Thanks,

Richard

On 21/02/2018 12:10, Jose Blanco Perales wrote:
Dear all,

I recommend that you have a look at the development of the Extended Date/Time Format extension of ISO 8601: 

Their solutions for uncertain and approximated dates is quite interesting. I think if fits really well the need of humanities projects. The  ISO committee has changed the syntax a little, especially the elements closely related to the English language (e.g. 'X' instead of 'u' for 'uncertain'). They are planning to incorporate the new extension in the forthcoming  ISO/DIS 8601-2 standard.
You can find more examples in the following blog entry:

Best wishes,

José Blanco

Virus-free. www.avast.com

2018-02-21 11:56 GMT+01:00 Richard Light <[hidden email]>:

On 20/02/2018 20:02, Hugh Cayless wrote:
Given the chaos that surrounds the W3C dating scheme (see https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344), perhaps we should look more seriously at a TEI-defined one.

Having documents where you know the day and month, but not the year, or know the year and day, but not the month is pretty common in my world. It would be quite useful to be able to express that information formally.
I think such a development would be of genuine value to a lot of audiences in the humanities.  Imprecision of individual dates, partial dates, and date ranges of uncertain duration, are very common in a museum cataloguing context, and I would guess in archives too.  Also in parish register transcription projects, i.e. genealogy.

Best wishes,

Richard



Hugh

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.


--
Richard Light


--
Richard Light



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: @when attribute

James Cummings-5

Hi Hugh,


I'd keep the -custom class of attributes for those using substantially different dating systems but if there was a way to keep all the expressiveness of att.datable (and subclasses) and merge the -iso version in I'd be all for that. Your suggestion seems to parallel the way the @calendar attribute points to a <calendar> to describe what calendrical system it is using. However, with dates it is even more likely to encounter problems of different attributes using different systems. (Imagine some project where they use one system for one of the attributes and another for the other. Or projects who, slightly improperly, switch from Julian to Gregorian in their not-before/notAfter attributes without using the -custom or similar versions. They might shift the burden of figuring that out to the processing.) In the case of what standard of dating system one was using might not we need a putative @dating attribute (or whatever) to be pointing to a possible <datingSystem> (or whatever), but be able to do the reverse so as to target which attributes on a given <date> are in which system?  Maybe I'm over complicating this though.


Best wishes,

James 


--

Dr James Cummings, [hidden email]

School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University


From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <[hidden email]> on behalf of Hugh Cayless <[hidden email]>
Sent: 21 February 2018 13:19:09
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: @when attribute
 
I we did it, I'd probably argue for folding it into *-custom rather than producing yet another set of attributes. But yay! Maybe we won't have to.

To be honest, I'm in favor of trying to prune those attribute sets. I'm not sure why we don't just have a mechanism for specifying which scheme you're using in your ODD/teiHeader and then just use @when, etc....

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/index.html suggests that we may eventually have our cake and eat it too ... (" EDTF functionality has been integrated into a draft revision of ISO 8601 to be published in 2017 or 2018.")  at which time, presumably, @iso-when will Do The Right Thing and we won't have to have a *fourth* attribute class for normalisation of temporal attributes (phew)


On 21/02/18 13:01, Richard Light wrote:

José,

Interesting, but what's the history of this?  I see a 2012 paper with an amendment last updated last month, and a note that it is superseded.  Has the official version disappeared into the dark maw of the ISO publication process, never to be seen (for free) again? :-)

Thanks,

Richard

On 21/02/2018 12:10, Jose Blanco Perales wrote:
Dear all,

I recommend that you have a look at the development of the Extended Date/Time Format extension of ISO 8601: 

Their solutions for uncertain and approximated dates is quite interesting. I think if fits really well the need of humanities projects. The  ISO committee has changed the syntax a little, especially the elements closely related to the English language (e.g. 'X' instead of 'u' for 'uncertain'). They are planning to incorporate the new extension in the forthcoming  ISO/DIS 8601-2 standard.
You can find more examples in the following blog entry:

Best wishes,

José Blanco

Virus-free. www.avast.com

2018-02-21 11:56 GMT+01:00 Richard Light <[hidden email]>:

On 20/02/2018 20:02, Hugh Cayless wrote:
Given the chaos that surrounds the W3C dating scheme (see https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344), perhaps we should look more seriously at a TEI-defined one.

Having documents where you know the day and month, but not the year, or know the year and day, but not the month is pretty common in my world. It would be quite useful to be able to express that information formally.
I think such a development would be of genuine value to a lot of audiences in the humanities.  Imprecision of individual dates, partial dates, and date ranges of uncertain duration, are very common in a museum cataloguing context, and I would guess in archives too.  Also in parish register transcription projects, i.e. genealogy.

Best wishes,

Richard



Hugh

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Lou Burnard <[hidden email]> wrote:
@notBefore and @notAfter not good enough for Madame?

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: @when attribute
From: Marjorie Burghart
To: [hidden email]
CC:

I think I'll rather use the mnemonic "and if the year is missing, there's a leading hyphen, for no reason" ;)
Because otherwise it's confusing: when the month is missing too, you would expect to also replace it with a hyphen, but... no.

It's a different issue than my idle question, but... like James, I thought this notation was used for "if I don't know the year". It's a pity we don't have an easy mechanism for that.

Best wishes,
Marjorie



----- Mail original -----
De: "Syd Bauman" <[hidden email]>
À: [hidden email]
Envoyé: Mardi 20 Février 2018 20:44:23
Objet: Re: @when attribute

That's exactly the mnemonic I use, too, James. (But remember, it's
not "I don't know the year", but rather "every year".)

> If it helps in remembering it, I always think of the first of those
> two hyphens as replacing the year so 2018-02-20 becomes --02-20
> when I don't know the year. A hyphen to replace the year, and the
> hyphen that was there before. I think Syd and Martin are probably
> right on the reasons why... I've never questioned it.


--
Richard Light


--
Richard Light